This is a Yes

[lenaumade]

You must talk about the national air carrier because Westjet is the lowest paid airline and some other Canadian Airline. But yes you are completly right.

The issue is that Air Canada got absolutly no competition. the pay is lower than elsewhere but it is the highest in Canada if you stick around.

The management did not give any gift. They wanted training flexibility and wet lease. On what the union negociated to lower the flat pay. Which is a good news whatever you say. Of course it would have been better to just have one year of flat pay but...again, there is no competition and no shortage of pilot for Air Canada so....it is not the same game as i usa.

A real leverage on the next negociation in 2023 would be a strike...

[Aspiredtofly]

I see a bunch of raw dog nonsense going on in this sub forum. Like why do you all have to tuck each other's pants by telling them to do what or what would happen. The reason I'm saying this is because it doesn't matter until the vote shows its true result. Quit complaining all the time about all the things that are yet to happen in the future. I don't count on anyone here but good luck AC on what decision you choose. I'm a full ''No'' here cause WE all deserve better.

[negative_g]

So no competition, ok. Lets just go with that for now (I disagree, personally). Then we must capitalize on leverage when we can. Closed contract and the company comes crying for help for keeping Jazz planes flying, training and scope, and hiring? It should cost them bigtime. Much more than they have in this deal. Forget this idea that we aren't in an opener, it doesn't matter. Any time the company comes to you with an ask when you as a union have the big hammer that is walking away and saying "see ya in 2024" (2023 opener is very limited on what they can arbitrate/negotiate) then all of a sudden you may realize how much leverage you have.

Also,

The fact you are saying in 2023 real leverage would be a strike, shows me you have no clue about negotiations or how the 10 year deal is structured. 2023 is a cost-neutral opener, and limited in scope on what can be touched. We don't open until 2024.

[altiplano]

So no competition, ok. Lets just go with that for now (I disagree, personally). Then we must capitalize on leverage when we can. Closed contract and the company comes crying for help for keeping Jazz planes flying, training and scope, and hiring? It should cost them bigtime. Much more than they have in this deal. Forget this idea that we aren't in an opener, it doesn't matter. Any time the company comes to you with an ask when you as a union have the big hammer that is walking away and saying "see ya in 2024" (2023 opener is very limited on what they can arbitrate/negotiate) then all of a sudden you may realize how much leverage you have.

Also,

The fact you are saying in 2023 real leverage would be a strike, shows me you have no clue about negotiations or how the 10 year deal is structured. 2023 is a cost-neutral opener, and limited in scope on what can be touched. We don't open until 2024.

Clearly you don't understand the structure well either.

The company hasn't met fleet benchmark numbers to maintain the 10 year master MOA. It's ACPA option to continue or toss it next year.

[lenaumade]

So no competition, ok. Lets just go with that for now (I disagree, personally). Then we must capitalize on leverage when we can. Closed contract and the company comes crying for help for keeping Jazz planes flying, training and scope, and hiring? It should cost them bigtime. Much more than they have in this deal. Forget this idea that we aren't in an opener, it doesn't matter. Any time the company comes to you with an ask when you as a union have the big hammer that is walking away and saying "see ya in 2024" (2023 opener is very limited on what they can arbitrate/negotiate) then all of a sudden you may realize how much leverage you have.

Also,

The fact you are saying in 2023 real leverage would be a strike, shows me you have no clue about negotiations or how the 10 year deal is structured. 2023 is a cost-neutral opener, and limited in scope on what can be touched. We don't open until 2024.

If I was a manager, knowing there is no lack of pilot in my company and no competition. I would squeeze you and your move would be very limited. That s what they did on many contract. If you want to slow down operation, I would threathen the members to fire them. It has already been done.

you re complaining about how the union could ever present such a shitty MOA. Who do you think gonna negociate our contract next year?? yeah those same guys.

Also, if there is a crisis next year, forget about a good contract. Mortgage rate are higher than ever, stock hits the lowest index since 1930. Maybe people will travel less. Then, we could not expect to negociate anything at this point and the flat pay will stay...

[negative_g]

So no competition, ok. Lets just go with that for now (I disagree, personally). Then we must capitalize on leverage when we can. Closed contract and the company comes crying for help for keeping Jazz planes flying, training and scope, and hiring? It should cost them bigtime. Much more than they have in this deal. Forget this idea that we aren't in an opener, it doesn't matter. Any time the company comes to you with an ask when you as a union have the big hammer that is walking away and saying "see ya in 2024" (2023 opener is very limited on what they can arbitrate/negotiate) then all of a sudden you may realize how much leverage you have.

Also,

The fact you are saying in 2023 real leverage would be a strike, shows me you have no clue about negotiations or how the 10 year deal is structured. 2023 is a cost-neutral opener, and limited in scope on what can be touched. We don't open until 2024.

Clearly you don't understand the structure well either.

The company hasn't met fleet benchmark numbers to maintain the 10 year master MOA. It's ACPA option to continue or toss it next year.

Oh I know. But that doesn't mean we have to negotiate. Do you really think entering full bargaining with this divided MEC, this negotiating committe, jalmer etc is a good idea? I don't.

[lenaumade]

Just to understand your point of view better, you think that if we all vote No, the company, for certain, will come back with a better couteroffer?

[negative_g]

Yes. There's too much in the deal that they need to make next summer work.

[lenaumade]

so my question, is there a precedecence where the members rejected an moa and did the company came back with a better offer?

[negative_g]

Yeah pretty much every union ever in existence.

Stop buying into the yul fear.

[lenaumade]

LOL ACPA is not every union, and Air Canada not any company. We keep negociating shitty contract, that s why I am asking specifically is there a precedence for ACPA and Air Canada? cause to see the contract we got...It does not seem it happen before

[negative_g]

LOL ACPA is not every union, and Air Canada not any company. We keep negociating shitty contract, that s why I am asking specifically is there a precedence for ACPA and Air Canada? cause to see the contract we got...It does not seem it happen before

Do you not seem to understand that this isn't normal negotiations? We have all the leverage. The company NEEDS something from us we lose nothing if we say no (and yeah as a flat pay guy I still believe that because it needs to be fixed no matter what and will) it's on them to come back with a better offer. Next summer is fucked if they don't. You think the execs want to answer to the board why they can't do the flying they planned? Not a chance.

[lenaumade]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

[Chateau]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

Can you please learn to spell "negotiate" & "counter offer"

It's no wonder the company offers us peanuts. Some of us apparently write at a grade 9 level

[lenaumade]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

Can you please learn to spell "negotiate" & "counter offer"

It's no wonder the company offers us peanuts. Some of us apparently write at a grade 9 level

Yes you re totally right, That is why we fail all the negociation, because of my spelling...
Also when you say "Can you please learn to spell "negotiate and couter offer", it implies that it is a question. I m not in grade 10 yet but I think you have to put a question mark at the end such as "?". You could seat next to me in grade 9, I will keep your place warm.

Also, your username is a French name and you spell it "Château" and not Chateau. So if you got any more question, do not hesitate

cheers

[RRJetPilot]

What will happen is the big bid will come out. We vote no around 80%. Company tries to play hardball pulls the bid. Says agree to it or else. We hold out long enough they will come back to the table like adults.

[RVR6000]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

[altiplano]

Who cares if there is no counter-offer. Stop being cheap whores, value the profession for once.

Totally.

@#$!'em if they want to cut out part of the 2023 commercial schedule and the hundreds of millions of dollars that represents. Let them turn down the millions more of cargo revenue, and settle the grievance that JZA ALPA will win and shut down part of that operation because they can't staff it... or us...

Those are big boy exec-u-tive choices. Or they can get real and get out their chequebooks, toss out the ridiculous permanent concessions and we can give them short term flexibility in exchange for real lasting gains. They don't want to do that? The losses are on them.

Value yourself, your profession. If not now, then when?

[Loon-A-Tic]

Grow a pair, Man Up, put on your big boy pants, sorry I don't have any "non-binary" one's.

[lenaumade]

Essentially our difference of thinking here is that you re sure that they will come back with a couteroffer. I don't think they will. I m not saying that out of fear. it is just what I think.
You are a bit too full of certainty. I am way more cautious on the simple fact that if there is a couteroffer, that would be your union which will negociate for us. Essentially they would still have to make some concession anyway...So I don t see that the result would be very different that what we have now. It is just a question of logic.
Anyway, we can debate all night but we ll see in a few days!
cheers guys!

Who cares if there is no counter-offer. Stop being cheap whores, value the profession for once.

Who cares?
Lots of guys on the flat pay and the jazz guy. If there is no couter offer, the 4 years flat pay is staying, then you will be a very very cheap whore.
The jazz pilot stay at jazz. AC continue to hire externally for months, Jazz guy will come after maye 100,200, 300 guys or more.
Value your colleague for once