Easiest "No" Vote to Come to this pilot group to date

[BlueSkies12]

Lenaumade, please stop posting your rhetoric. You keep saying the same thing and your english is horrible.

[digits_]

What date is the actual vote? When will the results be published?

[negative_g]

Vote is ongoing ends I think on the 11th. Results posted typically within a few hours of close.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Lenaumade, please stop posting your rhetoric. You keep saying the same thing and your english is horrible.

That’s how you can tell he’s from YUL!

[2Shoes]

Selfish....The deal is clearly to get rid of the flatpay for new hire and ease the transition to the jazz guy but in exchange other pilot will have to have a 85 dbm instead of 80. You do not want to do it because you don t have anything to gain out of it. You would not make this permanent gain for new hire because your conditions will not improve....isn't that Selfish ?

It is not going to 85 instead of 80.
It is going to 85 DBM every month rather than surging to 88 in the summer and less in other months.
It is going up 24 hours max per year (996 to 1020).
If you take the average wide body day to be 8 hours then that equates to 3 extra working days per year.
If you take the average wide body day to be 12 hours then that equates to 2 extra working days per year.
And they are paid days.

[daedalusx]

Lenaumade, please stop posting your rhetoric. You keep saying the same thing and your english is horrible.

That’s how you can tell he’s from YUL!

[negative_g]

Selfish....The deal is clearly to get rid of the flatpay for new hire and ease the transition to the jazz guy but in exchange other pilot will have to have a 85 dbm instead of 80. You do not want to do it because you don t have anything to gain out of it. You would not make this permanent gain for new hire because your conditions will not improve....isn't that Selfish ?

It is not going to 85 instead of 80.
It is going to 85 DBM every month rather than surging to 88 in the summer and less in other months.
It is going up 24 hours max per year (996 to 1020).
If you take the average wide body day to be 8 hours then that equates to 3 extra working days per year.
If you take the average wide body day to be 12 hours then that equates to 2 extra working days per year.
And they are paid days.

Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB. Also the 88 "surge" is very limited, it can't be every fleet and every year. The 85 is a major increase in hours worked, and will decreased the amount of jobs required to man the fleet. Big no.

[Dias]

I'll never vote yes for cargo wet leases while our pilots are at 90% salary. I'll never vote yes for Scope lets ever.

[Ratherbe]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

[schnitzel2k3]

This should be a no because you are in no position to strike, therefore the AC pilot group has ZERO leverage in this negotiation. Your reos are quite literally feeding you bullshit. You are taking what is minimally ok for you and very good for management.

Wait until there is a true threat and come at them for everything you lost. Flat pay is the scourge of the industry, but anyone who actively signed on at flat pay can wait a little longer so you guys can really make a difference.

Flat pay abolished, straight to formula.

Come together, right now, over this!

[lenaumade]

Lenaumade, please stop posting your rhetoric. You keep saying the same thing and your english is horrible.

BlueSkies12, Please tell them to stop saying their rhetoric and I'll promise, I'll do the same. And no problem for my English, would you like to go on in French?
And it seems you understood my "rhetoric" pretty well

[Humble]

Selfish....The deal is clearly to get rid of the flatpay for new hire and ease the transition to the jazz guy but in exchange other pilot will have to have a 85 dbm instead of 80. You do not want to do it because you don t have anything to gain out of it. You would not make this permanent gain for new hire because your conditions will not improve....isn't that Selfish ?

It is not going to 85 instead of 80.
It is going to 85 DBM every month rather than surging to 88 in the summer and less in other months.
It is going up 24 hours max per year (996 to 1020).
If you take the average wide body day to be 8 hours then that equates to 3 extra working days per year.
If you take the average wide body day to be 12 hours then that equates to 2 extra working days per year.
And they are paid days.

Average WB days are closer to like 5 hours TAFB. Also the 88 "surge" is very limited, it can't be every fleet and every year. The 85 is a major increase in hours worked, and will decreased the amount of jobs required to man the fleet. Big no.

I'm usually a lurker. But I had to pipe up on this. I'm curious what wide body at AC averages 5 hours "Time Away From Base"? Maybe I'm confused what TAFB means. Maybe you're confused. We might all be confused.

[FL030]

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

You must mean the ones so junior they're still at Jazz. Because as a junior AC pilot this MOA does not benefit me.

[RippleRock]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

Who of the MEC or LEC sycophants might you be?

"Screwing the Junior Pilots". How? By protecting them from this nasty dump of an MOU? They will have to live with the consequences far longer that you or I ever will. Or are you really just looking out for yourself at their direct expense. If so, you should be ashamed. But I'll bet you sleep just fine at night. You guys have been screwing the group for years.

One last "hail Mary" before you get pitched in the dumpster of history.

[eurotrash]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

Funny to see how during TA1 and subsequent 10 yrs deal where 4 yrs flat pay was sold as a "win", we didn't negotiate for the unborn when management was trying to shave a few off bucks off pilot pay

Now that there is a pilot supply issue and known pay problem causing recruitment issues, suddenly there is great concern for junior pilots

The pot calling the kettle black

[Alkasultzer]

600 furloughed out of 4200...14 or 15%


What percentage of Jazz pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Air Transat pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Sunwing pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Porter pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Westjet pilots were laid off?
What percentage of Westjet Encore pilots were laid off?

Maybe stop hitting your head against the wall and realize how good most AC pilots have had it.

Senior management have stated that had they known how long Covid was going to last they would have furloughed 3000 pilots.

Does it suck to be furloughed...it sure does. But the epidemic has nothing to do with AC or ACPA.

This did not age well...

They laid off 600 and are now looking for training flexibility so they can catch up

Imagine if they laid off 3000...lol

Well done with the propoganda Lt Dan

[altiplano]

Bottom line in this deal is a net negative for AC pilots and the larger piloting profession in Canada.

The only gains are isolated and short term, the losses are forever.

Easy No.

Alti,
Obviously you've been drinking the cALPA Kool aid. I hope you're happy screwing our junior pilots. Nice.

I think "junior pilots" are smarter than that. They see this is only a brief gain in return for a career of concessions.

They see that we are leaving money behind here. Flat pay will be fixed imminently, it's a priority for this group, it's a necessity for the company, BUT THIS ISN'T THE DEAL TO DO IT

Let's get a good deal, not this POS.

Air Canada needs a deal on this. They'll come back to the table.

Remember the take it or leave it deal for Aeroplan? Smart money got up and walked out - and they had zero leverage - Rovinescu returned with another $125 million and then some.

The Transat deal fell through because of Covid, but remember that one? Shareholders were waffling with PKP, or the other group of investors trying to challenge the deal. AC upped their offer by 50% to get the result they wanted.

This is business. AC management are so used to ACPA just accepting every POS they toss out, and this is one of them, that they don't have to make a good deal. That they force us to quid pro quo contract clause with unknown levels of risk ot blowback.

And we're relying on Jalmer Johnson? This guy reminds me of Biden up there, at some points he was providing non-sequitur answers. He spent more time talking about what he did 40 years ago than this deal.

The AC guns must have a chuckle when they walk in with our negots team:

We got a chair and another pilot who has only ever given the company concessions since their involvement, neither of them could provide anything in their resume of relevance when asked, we got Lionel Hutz heading up our LRD, we got Brandon, I mean Jalmer Johnson...

Is it any wonder that we're getting the losing deal?

20 years of concrssions and counting.

Time to stop the slide. Send this back and get a good deal.

[Ratherbe]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

Over simplification and revisionist history at its finest. The two bargaining situations are not even close to comparable. The only thing that is the same is that the MEC/NC blindsided the membership with a poor deal and the membership doesn’t like it.

-Jimmy

[Fanblade]

Send this back and get a good deal.

You mean like when we turned down the TA and got FOS? You never learn. Go back and check our discussions. Your predictions are wrong and your character assessments are wrong too.

You and the p4c are misleading the junior pilots and playing on their emotions.

Ratherbe there is no risk of arbitration in this instance. With that said, had this been an open contract situation where we had signed an MOA, when arbitration was a possible outcome, then yes it would be a concern.

I would say that you are right though. We clearly didn’t learn. Your point is exactly why crap like this should never make it to the membership in the first place.

It should also be sending alarm bells and shivers down our spine about entering regular negotiations with ACPA. If they they sign a crappy MOA like this when arbitration is a possible outcome, we are all royally screwed. AGAIN.

Thanks for the reminder Ratherbe

Get RID of ACPA STAT. The only thing this MOA should generate is a reminder of how great a risk ACPA is to your WAWCON.