Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

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Inverted2
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by Inverted2 »

Goodman5 wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:02 am
Inverted2 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:09 am
canadian_aviator_4 wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:58 am Jazz is 2 companies. Pre 2015, with DB pension and other benefits. And post 2015, which is set up or was set up to send pilots to ac and motivate to leave with poor pay and reduced benefits compared to their senior colleagues.
Aside from the pension there isn’t much difference in benefits from pre/post 2015. I was hired pre 2015 and the new hire pay wasn’t any better then. Stuff just cost less way back when.

Also upgrades took 10-20 years depending on base 15 years ago as well. A new hire now will make more since they can get a left seat almost immediately.

****** I’m not defending the pay, it sucks. I’m just pointing out it was never really great in the past*****
-Isn’t much difference? First off, the different pension is a huge slap in the face to everyone hired after 2015.

-Another slap in the face is the difference in pay for the first 6 years before a pilot ‘scales’ back up to first class citizen rate.. or ‘A scale.’ (A scale - B scale was the most open trashing of “new” pilots coming to Jazz by the way. You guys just never think how much that’s pissed off your co workers)

-Slapped us in the face with flight passes, passes for life, J class etc.

One of those things that you call ‘stuff’ that cost cheaper 10-20 years ago for you… is a house/rent. Which has doubled/tripled in that time yet you have the gall to say our 2022 pay is comparable to say, 2009.. even 2014.

C’mon pal.
Bud, seriously…... No one has DB pensions now unless you want to go work for the government. Also the pass priority is not set by Jazz but by AC. They decided that new hires sit in economy. Our union tried to get it changed. You guys should direct your anger towards AC if you don’t like the PML and the Passes.
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by rudder »

DB pensions are for career employees. How many pilots that come to Jazz plan on retiring at Jazz? Focus should be on enhancing the replacement plan just as the mainline pilots have done.

PML (or whatever the latest incarnation is called) - hundreds and hundreds of Jazz pilots have taken advantage of it. Focus should be on making sure that hundreds more can take advantage of it.

Pass priority - was this subject raised by any candidate at the Jazz interview? Or AC interview? AC decided to grandfather former subsidiary employees. Not sure there is a legal basis for that but it was a policy that was applied to all former subsidiary staff, not just at Jazz.

The one thing that Jazz pilots can and should alter is the pay grid. Starting pay is an embarrassment to the industry. A change in this regard benefits all pilots that come to Jazz whether their stay is short or long.

Bargaining is about leverage and priorities. Not everything can have equal priority.
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Inverted2
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by Inverted2 »

Yes I was going to mention that. If your goal is AC why do you care about the pension if you’re only going to be at lousy Jazz for 2 or 3 years? News flash: AC new hire pension isn’t much better! You millennials better bring your concerns up at your interviews from now on. :lol:
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by Ash Ketchum »

If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.
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rudder
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by rudder »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:46 am If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.
AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by Ash Ketchum »

rudder wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:09 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:46 am If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.
AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?
Exactly, I guess if the AC vote is a yes then Jazz can depend on the LOAs from AC so they will be more likely to allow AC to keep taking Jazz pilots.
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rudder
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by rudder »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:07 am
rudder wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:09 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:46 am If this AC vote doesn't pass I wonder if they will resume hiring Jazz pilots or if they will hold out longer. This would be a big hit to the already low morale of many Jazz pilots patiently waiting to go to AC.
AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?
Exactly, I guess if the AC vote is a yes then Jazz can depend on the LOAs from AC so they will be more likely to allow AC to keep taking Jazz pilots.
So let’s drill down on this.

Jazz has known since late winter/early spring 2022 that flow to AC would resume.

Demographics (seniority) indicate that majority of flow candidates will be CA.

Jazz runs a bid and discovers that there will be many unfilled CA spots due no-bid ATPL or no qualified FO (commercial licence only). The latter is a self-inflicted condition. Decisions had been made in 2018 onwards to hire many low time pilots as FO. COVID stagnated their ability to accrue experience towards ATPL hours.

Jazz attempts to attract DEC candidates with appropriate qualification. Mixed results. Also, cannot force an ATPL new-hire to bid for a CA vacancy. Many choose not to as no job security protection while on probation.

Several Jazz PIT courses either cancelled or run below (anticipated) capacity.

So the question is - are there solutions other than suspending flow (which is a violation of the Jazz CBA) that might mitigate the apparent inability to hire and train enough qualified (DEC or upgradeable) candidates?

Of course there are. How about starting with offering competitive pay commensurate with experience and the marketplace?

Flow is the secondary problem. But it is being used as a smoke screen for the real underlying problem. And the failure to honour flow is creating a massive PR problem in attracting pilots simply exacerbating the shortfall.

Jazz cannot pretend to exist in a pilot labour supply vacuum any more than AC can. But the challenge will manifest (and already has) at Jazz in a much more immediate fashion.

Prospective pilot employees have many options. You don’t want to be the ‘backup’ choice. You should strive to be the first choice.
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kiaszceski
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by kiaszceski »

rudder wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 10:41 am
Ash Ketchum wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 9:07 am
rudder wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:09 am

AC has suspended hiring from Jazz because likely Jazz has told AC that it cannot staff it’s schedule factoring in attrition to AC. Attrition to AC is the only attrition destination that can be controlled.

The question here should be directed to Jazz. Why can’t you hire and train enough pilots to cover attrition?
Exactly, I guess if the AC vote is a yes then Jazz can depend on the LOAs from AC so they will be more likely to allow AC to keep taking Jazz pilots.
Jazz attempts to attract DEC candidates with appropriate qualification. Mixed results. Also, cannot force an ATPL new-hire to bid for a CA vacancy. Many choose not to as no job security protection while on probation.
Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by Turboprops »

kiaszceski wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:16 am
Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.
There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by RockSalty »

W
Turboprops wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:52 pm
kiaszceski wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:16 am
Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.
There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment
Are you talking about the ~2000 hour instructor?
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cdnavater
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by cdnavater »

RockSalty wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:47 pm W
Turboprops wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:52 pm
kiaszceski wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:16 am
Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.
There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment
Are you talking about the ~2000 hour instructor?
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by flyingcanuck »

cdnavater wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:42 pm
RockSalty wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:47 pm W
Turboprops wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 12:52 pm

There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment
Are you talking about the ~2000 hour instructor?
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
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cdnavater
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by cdnavater »

flyingcanuck wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:50 pm
cdnavater wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:42 pm
RockSalty wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:47 pm W

Are you talking about the ~2000 hour instructor?
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by digits_ »

cdnavater wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:11 pm
flyingcanuck wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:50 pm
cdnavater wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:42 pm
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by cdnavater »

digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:54 pm
cdnavater wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:11 pm
flyingcanuck wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:50 pm

I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by digits_ »

cdnavater wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:07 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:54 pm
cdnavater wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:11 pm

Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
Ok, fair enough. Keeping that in mind, isn't the part of the ground school talking about systems identical though?

If you fail the DEC applicant, you have to hire and train a new one.

If you move the DEC over to an FO training course, that should take less time than a full new FO course, no? Ground school mostly the same, already spent time in the sim, albeit in the wrong seat. If the company is willing, it should be possible to do that quicker.

Sounds like it is more of a 'sending a message' kind of thing.
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cdnavater
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by cdnavater »

digits_ wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:21 am
cdnavater wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:07 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:54 pm
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
Ok, fair enough. Keeping that in mind, isn't the part of the ground school talking about systems identical though?

If you fail the DEC applicant, you have to hire and train a new one.

If you move the DEC over to an FO training course, that should take less time than a full new FO course, no? Ground school mostly the same, already spent time in the sim, albeit in the wrong seat. If the company is willing, it should be possible to do that quicker.

Sounds like it is more of a 'sending a message' kind of thing.
Exactly, the message is, don’t waste our time if you are not ready. Problem is, with a bare ATPL, they don’t know what they don’t know.
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Transition9er2
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by Transition9er2 »

cdnavater wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:07 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:54 pm
cdnavater wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:11 pm

Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.

This comment doesn’t make any sense.

Training to CA levels means you must also be aware of the FO flows and calls.

If you fail out of left seat training, the best solution (in my opinion) would be a set of differences trainers then finish the course as an FO. You would not need to redo the full course when you downgrade.

The example above feels to me like the individual got themselves fired for other reasons than just failing the training.

Makes significantly more sense to have a DEC who is struggling, go right seat to learn the plane and Ops then try again. I guarantee if the motivation is there they’ll be able to do a command course before 12 months and still be considered an upgradable asset in Jazzes eyes.

Why would jazz want to make an already difficult situation with lack of captains even more difficult by firing new hires who are trying to become direct entry captains?
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kiaszceski
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by kiaszceski »

Transition9er2 wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:51 am
cdnavater wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:07 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:54 pm
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.

This comment doesn’t make any sense.

Training to CA levels means you must also be aware of the FO flows and calls.

If you fail out of left seat training, the best solution (in my opinion) would be a set of differences trainers then finish the course as an FO. You would not need to redo the full course when you downgrade.

The example above feels to me like the individual got themselves fired for other reasons than just failing the training.

Makes significantly more sense to have a DEC who is struggling, go right seat to learn the plane and Ops then try again. I guarantee if the motivation is there they’ll be able to do a command course before 12 months and still be considered an upgradable asset in Jazzes eyes.

Why would jazz want to make an already difficult situation with lack of captains even more difficult by firing new hires who are trying to become direct entry captains?
Jazz has to give an official communication about what would happen to DEC if they fail, is it going to be a termination for all of them or on a case-by-case basis?
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Upcoming Air Canada vote ..

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

If they fail out as DEC would make more sense to leave jazz for another company. If they meet DEC qualifications could be make quite a bit more elsewhere as an FO.
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