320 CA YYZ

[SHMILER]

Hi folks,

I posted in another thread a while back, but no replies so I thought I’d try again in my own thread.

Age 45. Overseas for the last 20 years. 13,000 TT. 12,000 hours on jets above 60T. 5000 hours PIC. Masters degree. I want to come back to Canada for family reasons and because I’ve had enough of ultra long haul flying and its negative health effects.

1) Can someone confirm that the time to command for 320 in YYZ is under 4 years? If that is the case, once you accept the command does that remove you from flat pay and place you straight onto CA pay scales?

2) I understand max days worked NB is 16 days. How does that work for reserve? Do they assign the days off at roster publication or is the whole month just published as reserve and days gradually change to duties or days off?

3) How are the schedules for NB YYZ. Is it mainly night stops or do you get to come back to base at the end of most duties? I’ve done the trips away and hotels for a long time and just want to be back home most nights. Is that realistic? As seniority grows does that make it more likely?

4) Once out of reserve, how does rostering work? Do you bid for trips? Or is there a set line of trips you can hold? Can you drop trips? Is there an open time option where you can pick up extra trips?

Anything else you think would be beneficial to know?

Apologies if these are fairly basic questions. I have read the other threads, but can’t figure out these points. Salary and pension I understand.

Safe flying.

Shmiler

[Straight2Secondary]

Upgrades are possible under 4 years.

You go to formula pay with the completion of the upgrade.

Reserve gets 12 days off in a 30 day block period and 13 days off in a 31 day block period. Days off are assigned at the award of the block.

4 day and 3 day pairings are common, you won't be home in between. Seniority helps with everything, don't plan on it for 10+ years doing single days and being home nightly.

You bid your schedule in a PBS system and it's a broken seniority system that doesn't really work, you bid trips, not lines. There is an open time system and a trip trade system.

[SHMILER]

Upgrades are possible under 4 years.

You go to formula pay with the completion of the upgrade.

Reserve gets 12 days off in a 30 day block period and 13 days off in a 31 day block period. Days off are assigned at the award of the block.

4 day and 3 day pairings are common, you won't be home in between. Seniority helps with everything, don't plan on it for 10+ years doing single days and being home nightly.

You bid your schedule in a PBS system and it's a broken seniority system that doesn't really work, you bid trips, not lines. There is an open time system and a trip trade system.

Thanks very much for the quick reply. The large fly in the ointment there are the trips away from base. It is something I’m trying to avoid, and if I’d be 55+ before I even start to get a sniff of a normal home life then it may not be the best option for me.

How is long haul life there? Longer time to command but better lifestyle? Clearly away from base every trip but more days home overall?

[Tbayer2021]

Honestly, it sounds like Flair would be a much better option for you. Mostly daytrips with almost no layovers and you could go DEC.

[Core]

I'm curious as well. Very similar situation. I might not come back for a few more years, but would someone around the same age reasonably expect to put in any time as a WB Capt holding an acceptable block before the age of 64.9 without real lifestyle sacrifices and crash pads at 50, or would WB FO to NB capt be the most sensible for the least mid-life sacrifice and abbreviated 20 yr max career? Is NB capt lifestyle a grind to do for that long?

To the OP, have you looked at Air Transat? They're hiring, upgrades are projected to be 3 year range for qualified people. Payscale looks higher than the NB at AC. FO tops 160k, Capt starts just below 200k and tops 250k, but the wildcard is job security... don't want to shuffle again at 50 to a 1st year DEC capt or FO. A few guys there has informed me with the current hiring and fleet plans, seniority will increase very quickly compared to AC, and not many people have a bad schedule apparently.
I'd be curious to see a comparison between a typical AT schedule and a NB capt at AC.

[negative_g]

Hi folks,

I posted in another thread a while back, but no replies so I thought I’d try again in my own thread.

Age 45. Overseas for the last 20 years. 13,000 TT. 12,000 hours on jets above 60T. 5000 hours PIC. Masters degree. I want to come back to Canada for family reasons and because I’ve had enough of ultra long haul flying and its negative health effects.

1) Can someone confirm that the time to command for 320 in YYZ is under 4 years? If that is the case, once you accept the command does that remove you from flat pay and place you straight onto CA pay scales?

Right now we have pilots in year 4 holding left seat and this is after covid. Before covid it was as low as 2 years and I expect it will get there again soon. You go right to the CA pay, fixed pay is only for FOs and RPs.


2) I understand max days worked NB is 16 days. How does that work for reserve? Do they assign the days off at roster publication or is the whole month just published as reserve and days gradually change to duties or days off?

You bid your schedule based on seniority. The bidding system sucks, as does our contract which allows the company to swap things all the way up the roster in order to "make it work". Reserve days are assigned before the month starts. On reserve all your days off ar guaranteed and you can not be forced to work on them. If you choose to, it's at premium pay and you get the day off back.

3) How are the schedules for NB YYZ. Is it mainly night stops or do you get to come back to base at the end of most duties? I’ve done the trips away and hotels for a long time and just want to be back home most nights. Is that realistic? As seniority grows does that make it more likely?

NB schedules vary from fleet to fleet. A320 is the workhorse, the 737 has pretty good trips, the A220 is quasi regional flying with some good north south trips flown in. Most are 3-4 day trips, you need to be quite senior to hold single days.

4) Once out of reserve, how does rostering work? Do you bid for trips? Or is there a set line of trips you can hold? Can you drop trips? Is there an open time option where you can pick up extra trips?

See above. You can't drop trips without screw scheduling saying OK. Or if you put them up on the tradeboard a pilot can take them. Don't count on dropping things. It almost never works. You can pick up extra trips but only by being called by screw scheduling (premium pay), or picking up other pilots flying from the tradeboard at straight time.

Anything else you think would be beneficial to know?

Apologies if these are fairly basic questions. I have read the other threads, but can’t figure out these points. Salary and pension I understand.

Safe flying.

Shmiler

Based on what it sounds you're looking for, Flair is probably a better option. They're new and it's still a bit risky knowing if they'll be around in 10 years but if they are and you get in now you'll be pretty set. Lots of single day trips and less days worked per month than AC. Pay is less, but rumours they are due for a pretty big bump soon.

[sstaurus]

Don't forget Rouge? Something like 60% of the flying is one-day turns currently. Also if you get on relatively soon, you will probably only be reserve for a few months.

[SHMILER]

Thanks all for the valuable input, much appreciated.

Sounds like AC just isn’t going to work for what I want.

I’ll have a look at Flair and Rouge.

[jpilot77]

Thanks all for the valuable input, much appreciated.

Sounds like AC just isn’t going to work for what I want.

I’ll have a look at Flair and Rouge.

Rouge is AC, all Rouge pilots are AC.

[SHMILER]

Yes, I just saw that. I thought it was run as a completely separate entity, but obviously not! It is all a bit confusing. Much more reading to be done on my part.

That said, thanks again for the input. It is genuinely helpful.

[DanWEC]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I wonder, how many years on the property would it take before holding left seat and a block on the 767 or up? Now what about to hold a schedule that is half decent? Better to stay NB? Big pay difference.

Cheers!
D

[RVR6000]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I wonder, how many years on the property would it take before holding left seat and a block on the 767 or up? Now what about to hold a schedule that is half decent? Better to stay NB? Big pay difference.

Cheers!
D

Cargo 767 is quite junior, bottom captain positions around 6 year seniority. Lifestyle is the big unknown, the fear of 6-7 day pairings have kept many seniors NB pilots from bidding it. I’ve seen some pairings with 1-3 am check ins.

With 11 years at the company I still can’t hold a decent NB CA schedule. I see those with 16+ plus years holding good schedules, but it’s comes with a big trade off. Most of those pilots can hold WB CA positions but trade off money for lifestyle.

[negative_g]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I wonder, how many years on the property would it take before holding left seat and a block on the 767 or up? Now what about to hold a schedule that is half decent? Better to stay NB? Big pay difference.

Cheers!
D

Isn't the 767F CA seat like 2500 seniority right now? That's like 7-8 years at the company which is unreal (even if it's at -10% pay from the original 767 rates). No one wants to fly it, I wager its because we have caffeine addicts and there's no coffee machine (kinda joking).

I think it's more to do with not knowing the future. Although it's pretty risk free since it was a free bid for anyone who was on property when the MOA was signed. Cargo flying is often quite unproductive especially as you're building out a network. Guys are already flyin 18+ days on the A330. I imagine the 767 will be up there as well, and then it makes more sense to stay NB CA and make a tiny bit less but have a life and max 16 days.

[co-joe]

Thanks all for the valuable input, much appreciated.

Sounds like AC just isn’t going to work for what I want.

I’ll have a look at Flair and Rouge.

Rouge is AC, all Rouge pilots are AC.

Out of curiosity, if someone did want to aim for Rouge, what does that career progression look like? Are there openings in Rouge right now that you could get straight out of a PIT course, or would you have to put in 2 years as a WB FO (or wherever they stick you) before being able to bid into a Rouge position? It's speculation, but surely Rouge will be getting allocated some WB capacity at some point again right? (you can't go after TS's lunch with a bunch of old 321's)


For OP, not sure what overseas carrier you are at, but I can just about guarantee Flair has someone from there who could give you an idea what the transition has been like for them. We have tonnes of guys from EK, QR, CX, EY, and lots more here that came as Direct Entry Captains, with your experience, a position in the training department would be likely if that's your thing. There's a 50k 3 year retention program you could likely still snag most or all of, and ALPA and management are working hard for a better pay scale from the ownership. We have our own sub forum so I won't hijack this one too much more.

[jpilot77]

Thanks all for the valuable input, much appreciated.

Sounds like AC just isn’t going to work for what I want.

I’ll have a look at Flair and Rouge.

Rouge is AC, all Rouge pilots are AC.

Out of curiosity, if someone did want to aim for Rouge, what does that career progression look like? Are there openings in Rouge right now that you could get straight out of a PIT course, or would you have to put in 2 years as a WB FO (or wherever they stick you) before being able to bid into a Rouge position? It's speculation, but surely Rouge will be getting allocated some WB capacity at some point again right? (you can't go after TS's lunch with a bunch of old 321's)


For OP, not sure what overseas carrier you are at, but I can just about guarantee Flair has someone from there who could give you an idea what the transition has been like for them. We have tonnes of guys from EK, QR, CX, EY, and lots more here that came as Direct Entry Captains, with your experience, a position in the training department would be likely if that's your thing. There's a 50k 3 year retention program you could likely still snag most or all of, and ALPA and management are working hard for a better pay scale from the ownership. We have our own sub forum so I won't hijack this one too much more.

Depends on the course, most or all of the recent courses have had Rouge FO spots available in both YYZ and YUL. You may be locked into what ever you get in your PIT course for a period. But if you’re changing bases you can bid onto whatever position is available at your new base. As for the wide bodies coming back to Rouge that’s all rumours at this point.

[DanWEC]

Pension.... What does AC match now? Is it correct to assume it's the same across to Rouge?

Cheers