No vote full of regret

[Straight2Secondary]

Well this was predictable.

Watch this bid get cancelled when the no vote prevails and all the entitled prop pilots who think they have this non existent leverage who can hold left seat lose their upgrade for a year.

Regret served ice cold. You made your bed. I'm here to tell you I told you so.

[200Above]

Meh.

Paper exercise. Previous bid had 890+ vacancies. They can't train that bid, let alone this one. Smoke and mirrors.

[negative_g]

Well this was predictable.

Watch this bid get cancelled when the no vote prevails and all the entitled prop pilots who think they have this non existent leverage who can hold left seat lose their upgrade for a year.

Regret served ice cold. You made your bed. I'm here to tell you I told you so.

The fact you think the company is going to make commercial decisions based on the pilot group is comical.

We've been behind 500-1000 pilots as long as I can remember, nothing will change it's all fear tactics to get their yes vote.

Meh.

Paper exercise. Previous bid had 890+ vacancies. They can't train that bid, let alone this one. Smoke and mirrors.

100%

[WellThatAgedWell]

If Air Canada pilots agree to work for free, I bet the airline could afford to grow twice the size. I regret not working for free. Makes me sad to see all that growth potential fizzle away.

[Stu Pidasso]

I am not a fan of entitled Pilots, but I would say the junior Pilots around here have plenty of leverage.

[skyhighh]

Well this was predictable.

Watch this bid get cancelled when the no vote prevails and all the entitled prop pilots who think they have this non existent leverage who can hold left seat lose their upgrade for a year.

Regret served ice cold. You made your bed. I'm here to tell you I told you so.

How disconnected are you with reality? Go to PIT course… tons of jet pilots coming from all over the place. Give your head a shake… It’s not because you are an Air Canada pilot that you are better than anybody else new in the company. They are new at AC, not inexperienced.

['97 Tercel]

[fish4life]

They will cancel the bid then go back to the union saying it can’t get any better followed by ACPA giving something else up for a little gain somewhere else. Then another vote in which the pilots will be scared and vote yes when in reality they are just going to use the cancellation as leverage and need that many pilots anyway.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

I was surprised when a senior colleague told me that he was voting NO....not a hard no, not a hell-yes no...just no.

I asked him why he would do that...he told me that he was voting no and waiting for the inevitable complaints next week from his junior FOs and RPs about flat pay....

I said, "that's cutting off your nose to spite your face" ... he smiled as said, "yep, just like them..."

To each his own!

[Cavalier44]

I was surprised when a senior colleague told me that he was voting NO....not a hard no, not a hell-yes no...just no.

I asked him why he would do that...he told me that he was voting no and waiting for the inevitable complaints next week from his junior FOs and RPs about flat pay....

I said, "that's cutting off your nose to spite your face" ... he smiled as said, "yep, just like them..."

To each his own!

Sounds like your friend has a poor understanding of what's driving those pilots who are on flat pay to vote no to this MOA. I think we're all in agreement that flat pay needs to be addressed - the argument is how it should be addressed from a compensation standpoint, and whether we should be forced into concessions to see it addressed.

Personally, I feel that the compensation being offered is inadequate. It falls far short of what should be considered the industry standard for our profession, not to mention inflation. Secondly, I don't feel that the pilot group should be forced into concessions in order to fix a problem of the company's creation. If they want to fix flat pay in order to further incentivize experienced off-the-street candidates to apply to work here, they can do that with the stroke of a pen. Just pay us more - simple as that.

When you say junior pilots are "cutting off their nose to spite their face", you're effectively arguing that we should take any deal, no matter how lopsided on behalf of the company, in order to fix the flat pay situation, or else complaints about flat pay are invalid. I fundamentally disagree with you - when this MOA ultimately fails, we'll still be complaining about flat pay - because it needs to be addressed and ultimately fixed. However, the way to fix it is not through the type of half-baked, concessionary measures that the Air Canada pilot group has become known for over the past decade.

We're not interested in zero-cost bargaining - it's net improvements to the contract as a whole, zero concessions - or nothing. The company created this staffing problem because they got greedy and decided to cut costs, saving them millions every year in labour. Why should the pilot group be bending over backwards now to help them fix it?

As to the original poster - no one came here off the street with a sense of entitlement, thinking they were going to get an upgrade next week. We all came in expecting a three to four-year window for a narrowbody captain position; I think that is still a reasonable assessment. I have enough experience to know that attempting to jump into a left-seat position on an aircraft type that I have little experience on, and at a new company with unfamiliar procedures, is not a recipe for success, no matter how sharp you may be - therefore, the outcome of this bid is irrelevant as far as upgrades are concerned. I've cast my "no" vote, and I have no regrets at all.

[AstroPants]

I was surprised when a senior colleague told me that he was voting NO....not a hard no, not a hell-yes no...just no.

I asked him why he would do that...he told me that he was voting no and waiting for the inevitable complaints next week from his junior FOs and RPs about flat pay....

I said, "that's cutting off your nose to spite your face" ... he smiled as said, "yep, just like them..."

To each his own!

Being excited about listening to junior colleagues, ones that you may be leading and may even look up to you, complain about being paid a sub-standard wage is.. well, it's something.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Being excited about listening to junior colleagues, ones that you may be leading and may even look up to you, complain about being paid a sub-standard wage is.. well, it's something.

yes it is...something like listening to junior colleagues slam everything ACPA has done, and blame all the previous and senior pilots for the terrible situation they are in now....

you're effectively arguing that we should take any deal, no matter how lopsided on behalf of the company

Never said that...i am suggesting that maybe you should take this specific deal....and your P4C chairman said that the MOA was worth $10 to the pilot group for every $1 given to the company...how do you know differently? You personally feel that it's not right??? some other group of pilots who weren't even in the room or who have no standing in the negotiations told you?

We're not interested in zero-cost bargaining - it's net improvements to the contract as a whole, zero concessions - or nothing. The company created this staffing problem because they got greedy and decided to cut costs, saving them millions every year in labour. Why should the pilot group be bending over backwards now to help them fix it?

now there's a lot there....zero cost bargaining...see above!
net improvements...that's what the MEC Chair says they got... year 3 and 4 pilots could be getting $100k
zero concessions? I guess you don't know much about labour relations or contract negotiations...the pilot group has a list of wants and so does the company....they sit and negotiate...if you don't negotiate you may be forced to by the CIRB because you'd be negotiating in bad faith...
the company created this staffing problem....yep they sure did...they created the COVID virus, the industry shutdown for 2.5 years....they lost a billion or two on purpose but tried to save a few million on pilot salaries...the pilot group shouldn't bend over backwards....but you seem to have no idea what backwards is.... and you let other people tell you which direction backwards is...

When you have one of your forum supporters suggesting that a 6% across the board raise is a "tweak" to the contact then I feel pretty confident you guys don't know which way is forward or back or up or down.

If you think that during negotiations you'll get what you deserve..you're in for a life lesson....you get what you negotiate

[Montroyal]

Baghdad Bob,

When this fails miserably, are you going to try and paint it as a few pilots on an "angry forum" or are you going to finally admit that ACPA is giant pile of manure with next to zero support from the membership

[schnitzel2k3]

Kaffe, you have clearly voted yes. You see this moa as a big win and that ACPA has done their job and pat themselves on their backs. Got it.

ACPA is so far behind the curve they have you guys mentally living in 1992.

['97 Tercel]

Apparently so many people have voted no already nary a comment from now on matters...

[sanjet]

If you think a no vote will shut down future expansion, think again. More than employees, the board is accountable to the shareholders. There is zero chance they will announce a reduction in flying (revenue) next year. They have to figure something else out… maybe better compensation?!

[RVR6000]

If you think a no vote will shut down future expansion, think again. More than employees, the board is accountable to the shareholders. There is zero chance they will announce a reduction in flying (revenue) next year. They have to figure something else out… maybe better compensation?!

Exactly, no business operates on the principle of let’s reduce our revenue and growth. And give away years of market share, and billions spent in obtaining that market share (new A/C, Aeroplan, new lounges across the globe) to other competing carriers.

Lack of pilots and training flexibilities is a massive leverage that should be used for permanent meaningful gains. Maybe open up the contract now and go into full negotiations now.

List of items that needs to be addressed:

- pay increases across the board
- drop the 4 year flat pay to 1 year probation pay only
- daily min guarantee to 5:15
- better vacation credits
- drop the 1.5% extra contributions to the fully funded DB pension
- union’s input in pairing generation
- full pay deadhead

[BlueSkies12]

+1
Big NO from me

[schnitzel2k3]

This attachment should help guide you in your negotiations.

Regional Q400 Captain - FCI says YR1 DEC starts at 250k USD, I see 180k USD posted on their website plus 24k annual rentention bonus.

What's that work out to in our currency? 277.5k+ to fly a Q400?

Insanity.

[Aspiredtofly]

This attachment should help guide you in your negotiations.

Regional Q400 Captain - FCI says YR1 DEC starts at 250k, I see 180k posted on their website plus 24k annual rentention bonus.

Insanity.

250k to start

"And home every night schedule"

Please vote NO. Every pilot in Canada deserve better