Are Pilot wages actually that low?

[tbaylx]

Besides pay there are very few jobs where you get as much time off as a pilot either.

What?

I'll be away at work almost 300 hours this month.

75 hours a week.

Almost double your 9-5er.

I'll gross around 20K.

What's that?

$65/hr...

TAFB is not an indicator of how many days off you have in the month. You don't get paid an hourly rate for sleeping in a bed in a hotel because you're away. Plenty of other careers require conferences or travel from home.

In that schedule where you gross 20K how many days off do you have at home? I suspect quite a few more than the average employee and most other industries

[altiplano]

Besides pay there are very few jobs where you get as much time off as a pilot either.

What?

I'll be away at work almost 300 hours this month.

75 hours a week.

Almost double your 9-5er.

I'll gross around 20K.

What's that?

$65/hr...

TAFB is not an indicator of how many days off you have in the month. You don't get paid an hourly rate for sleeping in a bed in a hotel because you're away. Plenty of other careers require conferences or travel from home.

In that schedule where you gross 20K how many days off do you have at home? I suspect quite a few more than the average employee and most other industries

It's time at work. Period.

Sure maybe I can line up more days off in a row than the average Joe, but irregular schedules, early mornings, late nights, lost nights, long duty days, travel fatigue, half the time at home is recovery or getting ready to go again.

Downplaying the sacrifice of this profession because your think I get more days off than Joe and he goes to a couple conferences a year is disrespectful. Not too mention those 75 hour weeks were full work weeks in my career not too long ago.

I bet paramedics and firefighters get more days off than me and are paid their full rate when they're sleeping in their company provided bed.

[tbaylx]

What?

I'll be away at work almost 300 hours this month.

75 hours a week.

Almost double your 9-5er.

I'll gross around 20K.

What's that?

$65/hr...

TAFB is not an indicator of how many days off you have in the month. You don't get paid an hourly rate for sleeping in a bed in a hotel because you're away. Plenty of other careers require conferences or travel from home.

In that schedule where you gross 20K how many days off do you have at home? I suspect quite a few more than the average employee and most other industries

It's time at work. Period.

Sure maybe I can line up more days off in a row than the average Joe, but irregular schedules, early mornings, late nights, lost nights, long duty days, travel fatigue, half the time at home is recovery or getting ready to go again.

Downplaying the sacrifice of this profession because your think I get more days off than Joe and he goes to a couple conferences a year is disrespectful. Not too mention those 75 hour weeks were full work weeks in my career not too long ago.

I bet paramedics and firefighters get more days off than me and are paid their full rate when they're sleeping in their company provided bed.

Altiplano,

Oil patch workers, truckers, shift workers in all industries have these challenges. None of them are paid when not at work as part of their hourly workweek regardless of if they are in a hotel away from home or not.

If you feel disrespected by that or think that pilots are somehow special or different because of these challenges then probably not worth continuing the conversation. Making 20K a month gross means you make more than almost 99% of all other Canadians.

The facts are that other professions with similar challenges tend to get fewer days away off and are paid considerably less than pilots. There are examples of low wages in the aviation industry but that doesn't change the fact that pilots are generally well compensated at 705 levels with more time off than most other careers that share similar challenges.

[Handover]

Altiplano,

Oil patch workers, truckers, shift workers in all industries have these challenges. None of them are paid when not at work as part of their hourly workweek regardless of if they are in a hotel away from home or not.

If you feel disrespected by that or think that pilots are somehow special or different because of these challenges then probably not worth continuing the conversation. Making 20K a month gross means you make more than almost 99% of all other Canadians.

The facts are that other professions with similar challenges tend to get fewer days away off and are paid considerably less than pilots. There are examples of low wages in the aviation industry but that doesn't change the fact that pilots are generally well compensated at 705 levels with more time off than most other careers that share similar challenges.

tbaylx / CP Flair

This is my second career - I have been flying for 15 years professionally now and am still earning less than I was 30 years ago as a fresh graduate. Your 20k a month is still a very slim sliver of the entire industry. Most do not come anywhere near this. Taking the top layer and using that as an example is silly.

The fact remains that Canada - regardless of what industry pays less than most other western countries but is still one of the most expensive to live in.

The issue is beyond just aviation - but regardless of the argument as to the causes, there should be no reason why there is a large discrepancy between Canada and the US - or even NZ and Australia that have far smaller aviation sectors and are just as expensive to live.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Pilot WAWCON has been coming up lots lately.

I got into a debate with a friend who works as a paramedic in Canada.

The topic of our respective wages came up- They top out at 98,000 ( roughly)

I compared their top wage to Canadian regional captain wages topping out at around 165,000.

The individuals opinion was that the fact that we complain about our pay was laughable bordering on narcissistic .. nevermind American pilot salaries. They referred to US pay scales as “ bloated” ( along with our pay scales)..

I also discussed FO salaries in Canada and these wages were also deemed acceptable/ overly high at both the regional and mainline levels. They did a acknowledge that 40,000 is not that viable but commensurate with experience.

I also brought up mainline FO wages .. these were also commensurate with experience as well. Mainline WB Captain wages were deemed bloated and excessive.


Obviously my opinion is different …


Here’s why:

-time it takes to climb to the top wage brackets
-long tenures as rampies / dockhands
-Challenging ( at best) entry level jobs in the bush etc
-time away from home
-comparatively low hourly wage when airport time / time away from home is factored in.
-studies showing high altitude flying can lead to cancer
-degree of responsibility..
-consequences of a screw up at far higher and have a potential loss of life that could be massive.
-education cost.
-job security issues



Here’s the supporting arguments for why our wages could be deemed as overly high.

-both require recurrent training
-both require technical skills
-both careers can lead of loss of life If a mistake is made
-both work long hours
-both may live in a major center ( high cost of living)
-education cost
-non- adherence to policies and procedures can lead to loss of life.
-both are trades and don’t require college education.


What your opinion? Are we being “entitled babies” and do we need a reality check?

My opinion is that both careers are under paid.

Absolutely underpaid. The top salary takes many many many years of garbage wages and it’s a slow miserable grind to that point. Paramedics make more throughout their careers as they climb early on and max out way faster. Canadas aviation sector pays half of anything offered in the USA and even less in some European countries. It’s a training ground for the rest of the world, that’s it’s only benefit

[Ash Ketchum]

A family member is a paramedic in the GTA and brings in around 150K gross with overtime. As a regional captain I do around 110K gross (with overtime) and can't do more due to CARs.

Not to mention that paramedics have lower deductions and better pension...

[Aspiredtofly]

A family member is a paramedic in the GTA and brings in around 150K gross with overtime. As a regional captain I do around 110K gross (with overtime) and can't do more due to CARs.

Not to mention that paramedics have lower deductions and better pension...

The difference between them and us is lifestyle and metal

[goldeneagle]

I am really curious to know what tech job pays 140k-160k to someone without experience?

Those only exist in the figments of some imagination.

You’d be shocked how much money you can make in tech if you know what you’re doing and are not a total retard. Plenty of niches where the money is. Actually if I ever go back to flying I will have to take a huge pay cut.
Some examples, SQL, SharePoint, network security, pen-tests consultants, etc.

I'm well versed in tech salaries, been running a company in the field for over 20 years. the original question was regarding opportunities for folks with no experience, which is basically entry level positions.

Entry level positions dont pay the 140-160 you are quoting, those numbers go to folks with significant skillset and experience in field.

[Ash Ketchum]

Exactly, during COVID I worked as a senior software developer and was making nowhere close to 150 a year. Granted the job was for the Government which pays less than private.

[flyingcanuck]

Exactly, during COVID I worked as a senior software developer and was making nowhere close to 150 a year. Granted the job was for the Government which pays less than private.

And did you came back to flying?

[Ash Ketchum]

Exactly, during COVID I worked as a senior software developer and was making nowhere close to 150 a year. Granted the job was for the Government which pays less than private.

And did you came back to flying?

Yes I have a serious case of Stokholm Syndrome

[C-GGGQ]

Funny that it was a Paramedic making that suggestion, my last Air Ambulance job the EMTs made 75k, Captains made 80K, and Paramedics made 140K. EMT is a 6 week course. Because of the overtime structure at AB health, and the fact that pilots got straight salary, Captains and FOs were the lowest paid people in the whole operation.

Was about to say the same. All our paramedics made more than the pilots bar the most senior captains to the most junior paramedic

[Bede]

If the captain of that A/C screws up and writes off the airplane, injuring a bunch of the pax in the process, they will immediately go hide behind a union skirt and thats when you find out just how much responsibility they actually carry. They will not end up sued for damages, even if the passengers die. They wont have to pay for any of the damage to the airplane, and likely wont even lose their job over it.

Employees cannot be held liable for damages caused when acting within the scope of their employment. No difference if it's a pilot or forklift operator. That's just basic employment law.

[flyinhigh]

Employees cannot be held liable for damages caused when acting within the scope of their employment. No difference if it's a pilot or forklift operator. That's just basic employment law.

Don't come here and ruin a perfectly good debate.

[Bede]

Exactly, during COVID I worked as a senior software developer and was making nowhere close to 150 a year. Granted the job was for the Government which pays less than private.

Maybe you should have worked on the ArriveCan app.

[Arnie Pye]

Those only exist in the figments of some imagination.

You’d be shocked how much money you can make in tech if you know what you’re doing and are not a total retard. Plenty of niches where the money is. Actually if I ever go back to flying I will have to take a huge pay cut.
Some examples, SQL, SharePoint, network security, pen-tests consultants, etc.

I'm well versed in tech salaries, been running a company in the field for over 20 years. the original question was regarding opportunities for folks with no experience, which is basically entry level positions.

Entry level positions dont pay the 140-160 you are quoting, those numbers go to folks with significant skillset and experience in field.

Jazz isn't an entry level job either. Even now, it's probably a second or third job. Back in the day (still less than ten years ago) you had to have 6-7000 hours just to get an interview at Jazz.

Canada has quietly become the COPA Airlines of the world. Hiring at Copa was easy and open to anyone willing to come down. Copa used to be the place you could go to to get a type rating and some jet time before taking your 737 rating to China to make real money. Copa knew it, pilots knew it, everyone just went there for a good time not a long time. That's Canada.

There's a whole big world out there and most of it has lower taxes, better healthcare and retirement plans than we do.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

You’d be shocked how much money you can make in tech if you know what you’re doing and are not a total retard. Plenty of niches where the money is. Actually if I ever go back to flying I will have to take a huge pay cut.
Some examples, SQL, SharePoint, network security, pen-tests consultants, etc.

I'm well versed in tech salaries, been running a company in the field for over 20 years. the original question was regarding opportunities for folks with no experience, which is basically entry level positions.

Entry level positions dont pay the 140-160 you are quoting, those numbers go to folks with significant skillset and experience in field.

Jazz isn't an entry level job either. Even now, it's probably a second or third job. Back in the day (still less than ten years ago) you had to have 6-7000 hours just to get an interview at Jazz.

Canada has quietly become the COPA Airlines of the world. Hiring at Copa was easy and open to anyone willing to come down. Copa used to be the place you could go to to get a type rating and some jet time before taking your 737 rating to China to make real money. Copa knew it, pilots knew it, everyone just went there for a good time not a long time. That's Canada.

There's a whole big world out there and most of it has lower taxes, better healthcare and retirement plans than we do.

You got it, and it isn’t going to get any better any time soon (probably much worse)

[digits_]

There's a whole big world out there and most of it has lower taxes, better healthcare and retirement plans than we do.

Can you give a few examples of countries that have all 3?

It's easy to find some that have 2 of those options, but all 3?

[Arnie Pye]

Here are a few that come to mind: Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, UAE, USA (If you have a job you have good health care), Japan, South Korea, Panama, Costa Rica, Malaysia,...

Objectively India, Brazil and Vietnam are probably on the list with all three of these too. Yes, there is a lot of income disparity but as a pilot there, you're in their respective 1% and can afford top shelf healthcare with zero waiting times.

95% of people live and die within an hour of where they were born. Very few take the leap of faith and go abroad where they will be treated better.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Here are a few that come to mind: Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, UAE, USA (If you have a job you have good health care), Japan, South Korea, Panama, Costa Rica, Malaysia,...

Objectively India, Brazil and Vietnam are probably on the list with all three of these too. Yes, there is a lot of income disparity but as a pilot there, you're in their respective 1% and can afford top shelf healthcare with zero waiting times.

95% of people live and die within an hour of where they were born. Very few take the leap of faith and go abroad where they will be treated better.

I’d say that list very well rounded for all three. USA and Australia would be on the top of the pile. Japan pays extremely well and all areas of aviation are not only flat out, but also highly regarded in their society as well.