ALPA Petition

[Loon-A-Tic]

If any Jazz pilot regardless of their seniority number or previous aircraft type experience thinks they will be offered DOH in an AC/Jazz merger they are ON CRACK.

I’m guessing you are an AC pilot. Overall the industry is unpredictable and anything could happen. Doh could happen, or Jazz could completely eliminate flow. Or something in between. The real thing on crack is Canadian aviation.

DOH is never going to happen. You really need to stop dreaming.

Nope, your wrong on that one I'm NOT an AC pilot

[negroni]

I’m guessing you are an AC pilot. Overall the industry is unpredictable and anything could happen. Doh could happen, or Jazz could completely eliminate flow. Or something in between. The real thing on crack is Canadian aviation.

DOH is never going to happen. You really need to stop dreaming.

Nope, your wrong on that one I'm NOT an AC pilot

AC doesn't even have a DOH seniority list.

So many dreamers on this site.

[altiplano]

Dash Trash…
Thank you for your informative reply- most helpful.
The potentially divisive issue that I am contemplating, that was an issue with CALPA in 1994, was a merger policy.

Sportingrifle

If the concern is in regards to a possible re-integration of the Express fleet, just re-read “career expectations, longevity, and status and category.” If the concern is 20 year Jazz pilots magically sliding into 777 captain spots, there is just about zero chance of that happening. Both MECs would be smart enough to know that, as would an arbitrator.

A precedent was set with GGN and SKY DOH merger/integration or whatever you want to call it at Jazz.

Should an integration happen with AC nothing less should be accepted. Mind you their should definitely be fences that would prevent prop only guys to go direct left seat 777.

Precedent is based on s previous arbitration or judgment, this was not that, it was an agreement between two parties flying comparable equipment and routes at comparable pay, longevity, and expectation.

If an equipment with pilot transfer were to happen - big if - it would be a stapled list, possibly with fences allowing an option for Jazz CAs to keep their current seat, which is essentially what AC wanted us to do with the recent MOA.

And that would be a great deal, keep your seat with a big pay uplift onto mainline formula. and maintain YOS for pay.

[Ratherbe]

The question was asked about the relationship between ALPA (C) and ALPA-I and how Air Canada pilots would function within them.

Those constitutional changes are what was agreed to at the time. Yes, the process was put on hold for various reasons (politics, Transat), but there are new representatives at ALPA Canada and on the Board of Directors at ALPA. There is no reason we wouldn’t be offered the same deal this time around. And it will be put to the membership to decide if it’s the right move.

So you admit to spreading false information. Nice.

The discussions between ACPA and ALPA are likely over now. Instead, if the petition is successful, there will be a sales job by the team from the US of A and then a vote. Unless we get a voting seat at the big boys table it’s a hard NO.

So can anyone share what the new ALPA BOD changed in regards to the previous agreement? Is it the same deal?

[negroni]

Great question for them at the roadshow that will come!

Until then you should probably log off and chill out because all you're doing is getting people more riled up for ALPA. And bringing more attention to the false narrative that's being spread around. Pilots aren't as dumb as you seem to think they are.

[Dias]

New member survey is out via email

[Jester123]

Is ALPA really the answer, or is it the people who represent us and can use the powers of collective bargaining to benefit the whole group?

[rudder]

Is ALPA really the answer, or is it the people who represent us and can use the powers of collective bargaining to benefit the whole group?

ALPA has resources, structure, a constitution, and oversight.

Not perfect. Nothing is. The model is ‘pilots representing pilots’ with professional staff and resources that are unrivalled in the organized labour universe.

But it will still require quality volunteers to represent the group. ALPA also offers training for both elected and committee reps plus access to peers for advice, information, or support.

[RippleRock]

It's pretty hilarious watching our former ACPA representatives out in force spewing garbage in an attempt to sway opinion against ALPA.

Here's a fact. If they are against it, it is the RIGHT MOVE.

See through their petty vindictiveness over losing their full displacements. We couldn't possibly do worse by not pitching ACPA and -any vestige of it- in the garbage can as fast as possible. Expect a full-on assault of misinformation and disparaging comments about it.

Here's a question. What Legacy Carrier has ever done a pilot merger with a regional feeder that is owned in whole by a separate company? Not one.

Chorus is a separate contractor providing regional feed services, that's it. There's a similar case to merge our ground handlers date of hire, with those of Swissport. Think about it.

[Jester123]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

[BTD]

8095CE5D-FDA4-42CE-9008-5BC569C91449.jpeg (61.75 KiB) Viewed 2362 times

[altiplano]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

500.

[PostmasterGeneral]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

Ugh. Again with this crap?

[eurotrash]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

Ugh. Again with this crap?

As painful it is to see - good to review why ACPA has continued to exist despite abysmal performance

The fear & schmear campaign for the old guard & company has been an effective lifeline to an organization that has caused countless damage to this profession

[Fanblade]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

It would most likely play out like it did in the past when the regionals were wholly owned by Air Canada. Zero integration.

Pilots flying tier two or three aircraft are not required to be on the AC pilot seniority list. It’s an exemption under scope. It is for the same reason Transat would have had to merge. The size of aircraft they were flying was not exempt. Those pilots had to be on the seniority list.

ACPA has in its contract that AC will not pursue common employer.

A Common employer attempt from the regionals failed.

ALPA merger policy is not DOH. More importantly an arbitrator would decide the outcome and only cares about the arguments and jurisprudence before him or her. A policy is meaningless.

If Air Canada did decide on an operational merger with Jazz. Then I would much rather be represented by ALPA. Canadian ALPA kicked ACPA’s butt in the 2003 merger.

Regional airlines in North America are in for a big shakeup moving forward. The twin combo of a pilot shortage and higher salaries at regionals makes repatriation to mainline highly likely. Upgauge the aircraft and reduce frequency. None of this happens overnight as it takes time for more small NB’s to be ordered and delivered.

One issue AC may very well have is a need to right size the Jazz CPA to todays reality. They may see purchasing Jazz as a way to nullify the CPA and do the right sizing. But again purchasing Jazz and merging with Jazz are separate animals.

Although regionals may be under pressure to change under our current reality it does not mean they are no longer needed. Far from it. Merging Jazz into mainline would mean the mainline cost structure on regional routes. Highly unlikely. If they did they would shortly there after be creating another regional.

So may AC buy Jazz back? Certainly an option. If they do buy Jazz back will they need to merge it with mainline? No. Does it make economic sense to merge it with mainline? No. Is there history of Jazz running as a wholly owned subsidiary of AC? Yes

[Stu Pidasso]

Same old anti ALPA fear mongering, somehow a merger between Jazz and AC would go DOH. Christ, the Canadi>n Pilots didn't get DOH and they had 747-400's and a superior route structure.

AC has hired hundreds (probably a thousand) Jazz pilots over the last few years through a negotiated flow through, to the bottom of the list.

Even the dumbest Arbitrator on the planet would not give them DOH. That would put some snot nosed 250 hour Seneca hire, who has been at Jazz for two years and still doesn't have an ATPL, ahead of an AC Pilot.

This is nothing more than the save ACPA propaganda campaign.

[rudder]

ACPA = dumpster fire

[bobcatdriver]

Same old anti ALPA fear mongering, somehow a merger between Jazz and AC would go DOH. Christ, the Canadi>n Pilots didn't get DOH and they had 747-400's and a superior route structure.

AC has hired hundreds (probably a thousand) Jazz pilots over the last few years through a negotiated flow through, to the bottom of the list.

Even the dumbest Arbitrator on the planet would not give them DOH. That would put some snot nosed 250 hour Seneca hire, who has been at Jazz for two years and still doesn't have an ATPL, ahead of an AC Pilot.

This is nothing more than the save ACPA propaganda campaign.

Let’s pay Jazz pilots for what they should be worth and cut the umbilical to AC.

Would pass in a landslide vote.

[Stu Pidasso]

Now there's a fun discussion, how much is a Jazz Pilot worth. Rudder has posted some very reasonable numbers.

How about the new hire 250 hour College Grad. Here is a Pilot that no longer has to slug it out in the bush, or right seat of a King Air or worse yet (the epitome of Pilot exploitation) slaving on some scumbag operators ramp. Airline give them some snazzy clothes, doesn't have to buy greasy coveralls and expensive Arctic Parkas. Lives in Canada's major cities, no longer living on a Reserve.

Zero chance of getting killed in a flaming General Aviation (insert "Nav Air") accident. Pretty soft touch for a 250 hour Pilot.

What should their starting pay be? I am pretty familiar of the starting pay of an Articling Chartered Accountant (now CPA,) or Lawyer - shockingly low!

I am a firm believer that no Pilot should ever make less than the person serving your coffee, or loading the suitcases. That said, Jazz is an Airline that Deadheads Flight Attendants in J-Class and the Pilots in Economy - someone explain that brilliant move from ALPA?

Rumor has it the top end at Jazz isn't all bad, maybe it is somewhere in the middle seniority that needs fixing?

[Fanblade]

Now there's a fun discussion, how much is a Jazz Pilot worth. Rudder has posted some very reasonable numbers.

How about the new hire 250 hour College Grad. Here is a Pilot that no longer has to slug it out in the bush, or right seat of a King Air or worse yet (the epitome of Pilot exploitation) slaving on some scumbag operators ramp. Airline give them some snazzy clothes, doesn't have to buy greasy coveralls and expensive Arctic Parkas. Lives in Canada's major cities, no longer living on a Reserve.

Zero chance of getting killed in a flaming General Aviation (insert "Nav Air") accident. Pretty soft touch for a 250 hour Pilot.

What should their starting pay be? I am pretty familiar of the starting pay of an Articling Chartered Accountant (now CPA,) or Lawyer - shockingly low!

I am a firm believer that no Pilot should ever make less than the person serving your coffee, or loading the suitcases. That said, Jazz is an Airline that Deadheads Flight Attendants in J-Class and the Pilots in Economy - someone explain that brilliant move from ALPA?

Rumor has it the top end at Jazz isn't all bad, maybe it is somewhere in the middle seniority that needs fixing?

Better question. Why would any pilot go out of their way to devalue another pilot, regardless of experience?

This attitude has to stop. I get it. We have had it ingrained in us that everyone is supposed to pay their dues. Should they really? Who does this actually benefit? And why would we promote it? It drags everything down.

A new hire deserves the exact same respect and pay as any other new hire regardless of experience. If there is a shortage coming then the northern operators will have to pull-up their socks to attract them. We shouldn’t be pulling that bar down.

How about we just lose all the rationalizations, justifications and excuses we have employed in the past to lower the bar.