ALPA Petition

[TheAlcalde]

Almost makes me want to go back on the forum to watch MM lose his mind and go all conspiracy whack job.

[slicktop]

It's from Delta's MEC I believe.

Why would it be from Delta MEC and nothing from ALPA or ACPA? Am I missing something ?(Disclaimer: just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet)

What are you talking about? It was announced yesterday or the day before that there's an AIP. Maybe check that you're set up to receive emails.

Roadshows start next week.

[RoAF-Mig21]

It's from Delta's MEC I believe.

Why would it be from Delta MEC and nothing from ALPA or ACPA? Am I missing something ?(Disclaimer: just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet)

What are you talking about? It was announced yesterday or the day before that there's an AIP. Maybe check that you're set up to receive emails.

Roadshows start next week.

I did get it eventually, but it was after I wrote what I wrote above. I checked my inbox and spam. There was nothing (at the time of my original post). Again, I did get it eventually.

[elite]

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!

[rudder]

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!

What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.

It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.

It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.

With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.

[kiaszceski]

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!

What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.

It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.

It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.

With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.

What change should one expect in term of career progression or lobbying if AC joins ALPA?
Would this help raising the wawcons?

[Little Star]

Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.

With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.

Amen to that!

[elite]

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!

What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.

It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.

It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.

With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.

Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?

And I guess ALPA merger policy being date of hire, I'll be curious to know what happens if and when Jazz and AC agree to a merger?

[hithere]

@#$! dude you are just scare mongering

[Dash.Trash]

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but the title is enough for me to have concerns! Remembering how ALPA abandoned Canada 3000 pilots, I'd be in no rush to sign over the dotted line! Why is it that Canadians ask an American corporation to "come and fix their problems"?! It's like Palestinians and Israelis (cousins!) going to Americans for peace accord! Joking aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a "Canadian national union" that registers all Canadian airline pilots, with a low and fair due that stays in Canada? Who better to start it than the flag carrier and bring others onboard?!!

What was left of CALPA entered initially into a ‘services’ agreement with ALPA and quickly realized that a merger represented a better outcome.

It is 100% certain that the AC pilots would not entertain a return to CALPA as it was previously constituted. At ALPA, the AC pilots will have effective equal status at the Executive representational level as UA/DL/FedEx and others. And the ALPA Canada representational structure has also been modified to the benefit of the AC pilot group.

It would be great to dial back time and avoid the exodus of the AC pilots from CALPA. But that is not possible. Merging ACPA in to ALPA - and perhaps soon merging the APA in to ALPA - creates a single unified voice for professional pilots in North America and a powerful voice (by far the largest constituent organization) in IFALPA.

With the AC pilots included, ALPA membership will exceed 75,000 airline pilots. With the AA pilots, it would exceed 90,000.

Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?

And I guess ALPA merger policy being date of hire, I'll be curious to know what happens if and when Jazz and AC agree to a merger?

100% false.

“The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.”

http://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fil ... tabid=3345

Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

[rudder]

Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?

C3 senior management made some horrendous business decisions (Royal/CanJet acquisitions then decision to commence scheduled passenger service) and then 9-11 happened. C3 filed for bankruptcy protection from creditors under CCAA but was ultimately (and quickly) liquidated.

What exactly was ALPA supposed to do?

[elite]

Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?

C3 senior management made some horrendous business decisions (Royal/CanJet acquisitions then decision to commence scheduled passenger service) and then 9-11 happened. C3 filed for bankruptcy protection from creditors under CCAA but was ultimately (and quickly) liquidated.

What exactly was ALPA supposed to do?

ALPA had set-up a web site to help displaced pilots network and find jobs elsewhere. However, 2 or 3 days after the company shut-down and dues stopped, ALPA shut-down the web site!! So much for professional courtesy and brotherhood of pilots!!

[elite]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

[PostmasterGeneral]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Oh boy, if you thought an innocuous statement like that was an insult, maybe you should change your username to snowflake.

[Cavalier44]

And I guess ALPA merger policy being date of hire, I'll be curious to know what happens if and when Jazz and AC agree to a merger?

Not sure why this keeps getting brought up, except as a scare-mongering tactic by the ACPA old guard. Use some common sense. No one is seriously discussing this.

[Dash.Trash]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Oh boy, if you thought an innocuous statement like that was an insult, maybe you should change your username to snowflake.

You can say that again.

No the plan is not to insult people, it is to provide facts to quash rumours that individuals such as he continue to spread without any evidence to back them up. Now that the TA and summaries are out, here is a direct excerpt from the summary to hopefully kill this one dead:

The following are key facts about ALPA Merger Policy:
▪ ALPA Merger Policy does not require pilot seniority lists to be integrated by Date-of-Hire.
▪ The determination of whether a "merger" has occurred is made by ALPA's
Executive Council.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA is not a merger between Air Canada and Jazz
or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA does not trigger an integration of the seniority
lists of the pilots at Air Canada and Jazz or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.

[schnitzel2k3]

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Oh boy, if you thought an innocuous statement like that was an insult, maybe you should change your username to snowflake.

You can say that again.

No the plan is not to insult people, it is to provide facts to quash rumours that individuals such as he continue to spread without any evidence to back them up. Now that the TA and summaries are out, here is a direct excerpt from the summary to hopefully kill this one dead:

The following are key facts about ALPA Merger Policy:
▪ ALPA Merger Policy does not require pilot seniority lists to be integrated by Date-of-Hire.
▪ The determination of whether a "merger" has occurred is made by ALPA's
Executive Council.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA is not a merger between Air Canada and Jazz
or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA does not trigger an integration of the seniority
lists of the pilots at Air Canada and Jazz or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.

I thought this was fairly common knowledge last year that merging was not an intention of ALPA coming on board. Sure....Jazz guys would LOVE for that to happen. Not happening. How are guys still biting their nails about this? ACPA fearmongering was strong when ALPA threw their hat on the ring.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Hello Mr " i have nothing to do with these issues but I will spend hours pontificating about it"

You seem to think that everything that is wrong with the airline industry in Canada is ACPA's problem. Where's the hate for Westjet pilots and the bar-lowering that their company, the WJPA, and ALPA did to the Canadian aviation industry for the past 20 + years

How about you and your co-workers show some leadership and get industry leading contracts and fix all those problems too? And tell us what you did.

You seem to think ACPA members are paranoid about mergers and seniority mergers... when have you and your colleagues, wherever you work, been faced with a lawsuit that lasted 10 years, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal defence by disgruntled ALPA pilots??

Clearly, you have some hate on for Air Canada, Air Canada pilots, and ACPA.

Take a break from the keyboard and enjoy your life and stop complaining about something that has nothing to do with you or your life.

[Transition9er2]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Not insulting at all. What he’s doing is pointing out that rather than reading the literature that’s been handed out, waiting for the informational sessions to be conducted and asking these questions in a forum that will give you a legitimate response, you instead come on to a public forum and bring up the past and hold it as gospel. All while trying to sow seeds of doubt an confusion.

How about you put some effort into your fears of change and actually ask your questions in the best forum.

Your posts get you the responses you deserve. You’re trolling and it’s obvious.

Move on

[schnitzel2k3]

Hello Mr " i have nothing to do with these issues but I will spend hours pontificating about it"

You seem to think that everything that is wrong with the airline industry in Canada is ACPA's problem. Where's the hate for Westjet pilots and the bar-lowering that their company, the WJPA, and ALPA did to the Canadian aviation industry for the past 20 + years

How about you and your co-workers show some leadership and get industry leading contracts and fix all those problems too? And tell us what you did.

You seem to think ACPA members are paranoid about mergers and seniority mergers... when have you and your colleagues, wherever you work, been faced with a lawsuit that lasted 10 years, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal defence by disgruntled ALPA pilots??

Clearly, you have some hate on for Air Canada, Air Canada pilots, and ACPA.

Take a break from the keyboard and enjoy your life and stop complaining about something that has nothing to do with you or your life.

Did you forget to quote me so as to hopefully not get a response?

I do not work for Westjet - nor have I ever considered working for Westjet. I am not represented by ALPA either. Their agreement (WSPG) certainly doesn't help, but you see Kaffee - they are a low cost carrier. Their service is below that of Air Canada - despite their ticket prices pretty much matching them (love the people at WS, hate the aircraft, seats and the LCC model).

So....yes this industry is heavily affected and guided by the ebb and flow of Air Canada's hiring while salaries and WAWCON are stagnant due to the absolute disservice ACPA has provided as a union representative.

This entire INDUSTRY unfortunately hinges on the decision making and growth of 1 company.

It doesn't take much pontification (how long did it take you to look up that word bud) to know how ACPA has negatively affected an entire industry with poor representation and I'm sorry to say a formerly apathetic pilot group.

It looks as though the winds of change for our industry have arrived. Hopefully run with it.

Fyi, don't hate the pilot group, I'd share a coffee and beer with y'all any day of the week. I just think the mob mentality, guided by fear from the senior flight group and capture all the flying has put you behind the 8 ball. You win, we all win. I'd love to see AC FO's make 100k plus from day 1, and Captains tickle the 300-400k club without being draft whores. I'll likely never directly benefit from that, but indirectly that gives me more negotiating capital to do my job.

You win, we all win.