Negotiations

[airway]

One thing that might make CHR attractive to AC for a buyout right now is CHR's $2.50 stock price. That is very near it's all time low of $2.00 in 2013.



.

[Sharklasers]

I don’t think AC will be “buying Jazz” or “merging lists” but if something like that were to happen there are labour laws that have to be respected and lawyers that will decide it. Not a bunch of self entitled pilots on a forum.

No senior Jazz pilot will be expecting a wide body captain spot and no 30 year 25000 hr Jazz pilot will be bottom of the list either.

I think the amount (hundreds?) of senior 10-20+ year Jazz pilots who have flowed over to Air Canada recently severely weaken Jazz ALPA pilots in the event of a seniority merger in front of an arbitrator. It would be tough to argue that any position on the AC list is anything but progression as long as seat and pay protection existed.

I would be more than surprised if
A.) Air Canada bought their regional feed and then merged the pilot groups.
B.) Any Jazz pilot got anything different than staple on.

[rudder]

It is equally likely that the outcome will resemble the AC/ACPA scenario - minus the failed MOA ratification. Status quo.

No surprise here….


Negotiating Committee UPDATE

Fellow Pilots,

Further to the MEC Chairman Message on October 14, your Negotiating Committee convened in Toronto on Sunday, October 23, and kicked off meetings with the Company Monday afternoon.

Our discussions with the Company are primarily in the context of facilitating orderly flow for the required 60% to Air Canada. Subsequent issues arising from the movement to Air Canada revolve around the ability to hire and train replacements for this attrition.

On Monday evening we proposed several Collective Agreement enhancements, including a revised pay table. Without movement on these enhancements the MEC provided instructions not to discuss anything that facilitates the Company’s needs.

The Company reviewed our proposal on Tuesday and made no response. On Wednesday the MEC Chairman sent the Negotiating Committee home. This is not abnormal or surprising when parties to a negotiation are initially so far apart. Our understanding is that the Company remained at the hotel until Wednesday evening working internally in their caucus room.

Our committee remains on standby, however at this time we do not have any further meetings planned.

In solidarity,


JAZ MEC Negotiating Committee Chair

[goingmissed]

It is equally likely that the outcome will resemble the AC/ACPA scenario - minus the failed MOA ratification. Status quo.

No surprise here….


Negotiating Committee UPDATE

Fellow Pilots,

Further to the MEC Chairman Message on October 14, your Negotiating Committee convened in Toronto on Sunday, October 23, and kicked off meetings with the Company Monday afternoon.

Our discussions with the Company are primarily in the context of facilitating orderly flow for the required 60% to Air Canada. Subsequent issues arising from the movement to Air Canada revolve around the ability to hire and train replacements for this attrition.

On Monday evening we proposed several Collective Agreement enhancements, including a revised pay table. Without movement on these enhancements the MEC provided instructions not to discuss anything that facilitates the Company’s needs.

The Company reviewed our proposal on Tuesday and made no response. On Wednesday the MEC Chairman sent the Negotiating Committee home. This is not abnormal or surprising when parties to a negotiation are initially so far apart. Our understanding is that the Company remained at the hotel until Wednesday evening working internally in their caucus room.

Our committee remains on standby, however at this time we do not have any further meetings planned.

In solidarity,


JAZ MEC Negotiating Committee Chair

No news is better than bad news.

[kiaszceski]

Maybe they need to ask AC for some cash...

[GIVCE!]

I’m glad the union is standing firm on new pay tables (pay improvements)prior to discussing the company’s needs. Enough. Pilots first for once. Well done.
G

[rudder]

Maybe they need to ask AC for some cash...

One could argue that AC is disinclined to spend cash as well, at least in the volume that will ultimately be required to get a deal with the AC pilots. A move was made in the right direction but it will take perhaps ‘another zero’ to hit the aggregate dollar value required.

Now both AC and Jazz will have to deal with the realities of their current situation(s) and the in force provisions of the two pilot CBA’s.

AC has already acted in the near term by revising and reissuing the latest equipment bid reflective of available pilot resources and training capacity. It still contemplates up to 800 new-hires and many hundreds of initial type courses.

Jazz will have to see what it’s pilot resources and applicant drawer will sustain. There is no doubt that conversations are happening between Jazz and AC.

It would be positive to see similar conversations at the pilot level. But the state of flux in AC pilot representation - both in elected representation and institutionally - makes that conversation perhaps premature.

[truedude]

I wonder how bad it will have to get before they get serious. But every week we screw around, is another week of missed hiring, missed training, and the problem compounds as the pool of suitable candidates continues to shrink... particularly as other carriers continue to improve their compensation packages.

[kiaszceski]

They have time.
Flair is waiting for planes.
Lynx doesn't seem to have too many issues.
Westjet is done hiring for 2022, pretty much.
Encore is imploding.
Porter is waiting for the E2.

So until spring '23, things might move very slowly.

[daedalusx]

Stop answering the phone on your days off and you’ll see management will start to take things very seriously.

[rudder]

I wonder how bad it will have to get before they get serious. But every week we screw around, is another week of missed hiring, missed training, and the problem compounds as the pool of suitable candidates continues to shrink... particularly as other carriers continue to improve their compensation packages.

Every week is more departures of E175 pilots for Porter, in particular training pilots that are invaluable. Right now it is just a trickle of line pilots. Just wait until Porter E2 jet expansion picks up steam in 2023.

Carriers like Flair see great value in experienced jet CA for both DEC and rapid upgrade candidates, although the delay in achieving a CBA with improved compensation is not helpful in recruitment. Perhaps that will resolve itself sooner rather than later giving prospective pilots a complete picture of what is available.

Jazz to AC is not what it used to be. Too many years of deficient pay. One or both parties need to do something about that. 6-8 years in the system to reach formula pay is ridiculous.

Experience is a valuable commodity in 2022. It will be more so in the years to come. It is time to place an accurate value on that commodity.

[canadian_aviator_4]

I think the smartest thing would be to get rid of the Air Canada Hiring: Pay would increase for all of Jazz pilots, and those pilots that want to go are probably competitive with off the street if they meet the hiring requirements. Considering off the street candidates are ATPL and as low as the 2000 hr range. Overall, it would be easier than it is now to go to Air Canada, meanwhile rewarding those that want to stay with pay increases.

[kiaszceski]

Even in that case, you wouldn't benefit from the "flow"
As you are a Jazz Captain, they will put a quota in place to not hire too many captains. But then, FOs might get in front of you if they have too many.

[rudder]

One thing that might make CHR attractive to AC for a buyout right now is CHR's $2.50 stock price. That is very near it's all time low of $2.00 in 2013.

CHR is not for sale unless it wants to be. The CHR BOD added a ‘poison pill’ several years ago which will dilute the stock if there is an unsolicited or unapproved takeover attempt.

Further, CHR comprises 4 subsidiaries - Jazz, Voyageur, MRO (Tech services), and leasing (CAC). I could see CHR potentially selling a subsidiary, but not the holding company unless in the opinion of the CHR BOD the sale was deemed to ‘maximize shareholder value’.

AC currently holds a 10% stake in CHR. That is simply to demonstrate an investment in CHR as a going concern and to give AC an unfiltered view of any plans or transactions that CHR may contemplate as well as a direct view of the financial health of the corporation and its relevant subsidiary operations.

If there is a play here for AC it is to buy Jazz, terminate the current CPA with CHR (which has an operations piece and a leasing piece) and replace it with a long term commercial agreement with CHR that involves aircraft leases only. The value of Jazz is assets (few) and the present value of future earnings (2023-2035) associated with the fixed fee terms of the current CPA.

If CR were still running the show I could see this as an option being considered. I am not sure that this is something MR would be interested in pursuing. And it would require CHR being willing to sell Jazz and replace the CPA. The AC primary consideration is safe, reliable, efficient and cost effective regional operations. It has experimented with several different arrangements over the past 15 years with differing results. The proposed scope changes in the failed ACPA MOA regarding Tier II codeshare indicate that AC is interested in exploring further changes in regional feed.

Jazz pilots have reasonable job security until Dec 2025 and probably until Dec 2035. However, the absence of any announcements regarding Express fleet or fleet renewal after 2025 will start to be a concern as fleet planning takes years not months as is demonstrated by the nearly perpetual AC aircraft order announcements, several of which are not even effective until 2026 and beyond.

[rudder]

.

[averageatbest]

Westjet is done hiring for 2022, pretty much.
Encore is imploding.

Where did you hear that?

Encore can't hire enough pilots (most people see the airline for what it is) and WestJet has an open posting, but has likely already offered all of the ground school positions for 2022 as they usually do 2-3 months out.

[kiaszceski]

Westjet is done hiring for 2022, pretty much.
Encore is imploding.

Where did you hear that?

Encore can't hire enough pilots (most people see the airline for what it is) and WestJet has an open posting, but has likely already offered all of the ground school positions for 2022 as they usually do 2-3 months out.

This is what I said...

[daedalusx]

I doubt Westjet mainline will need many more pilots in 2023 if the Sunwing mergers goes through. Especially considering that the Sunwing flight crews would usually deploy in the summer and now that’s more or less over. WJ would get an extra pool of 400+ 737 drivers to be integrated with Swoop or maybe lease WJ tails to SWG in the summer. Doesn’t take much of a crystal ball to see that Onex will try to play Swoop against SWG against WJ mainline and considering ALPA is trying to negotiate substantial salary increases and Swoop and SWG are pretty affordable labour. Remember that SWG pilots had to sign a pretty bad contract which expires at the end of 2024 under the lie that SWG group was not for sale.

Either way, I think it will further slow down the Encore flow which will further decrease the moral and I wouldn’t be surprised to see more Encore drivers leaving for a jet position outside Onex.

[kiaszceski]

So what are the next steps now that the company walked out of the negotiations?

[North Shore]

Sit tight? It's an airline - they need pilots. And, it's not like the 80's where we grew on trees...