Negotiations

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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

Air Canada and Chorus Aviation Comment on Air Canada's Bridging Agreement for Additional Regional Capacity

MONTREAL and HALIFAX, NS, May 30, 2023 /CNW/ - Air Canada (TSX: AC) and Chorus Aviation Inc. (TSX: CHR) ("Chorus"), parent company of Jazz Aviation LP ("Jazz"), are providing comment on Air Canada's arrangement for additional flying capacity with another airline for up to six De Havilland Canada DHC-8 aircraft.

"Jazz is our long-term Air Canada Express partner, and we are working together to increase flying activity within the framework of our existing CPA given the current, industry wide pilot situation. As these efforts continue, and to help meet the needs and expectations of the travelling public, Air Canada has entered into a bridging arrangement with another airline to provide additional regional capacity on select routes in eastern Canada," said Mr. Michael Rousseau, President and Chief Executive Officer of Air Canada.

"Chorus understands that Air Canada is increasing capacity to meet travel demand and that the addition of these aircraft is a bridging solution. We confirm that this agreement does not impact Chorus financially," said Mr. Colin Copp, President and Chief Executive Officer of Chorus.
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:21 am
Watch people really start to leave now. And they still have to staff these airplanes. Not sure why they would have an easier time of it than us.
Can’t wait to read the statement from the JAZ MEC……

“All is good. Nothing to see here. We are in control”.

Guess what? You are not in control. One only has to wonder what other developments are in the offing. Perhaps this is the “uncertainty” that CB referred to. This is not a good look for a group trapped in a 12 year (remaining) CBA that was sold based on guaranteed AC flow and Express exclusivity. And living with the lowest starting pay rates in the 705 sector.

Wonder what the PAL rates will look like?
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ant_321
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Re: Negotiations

Post by ant_321 »

rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:56 am
truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:21 am
Watch people really start to leave now. And they still have to staff these airplanes. Not sure why they would have an easier time of it than us.
Can’t wait to read the statement from the JAZ MEC……

“All is good. Nothing to see here. We are in control”.

Guess what? You are not in control. One only has to wonder what other developments are in the offing. Perhaps this is the “uncertainty” that CB referred to. This is not a good look for a group trapped in a 12 year (remaining) CBA that was sold based on guaranteed AC flow and Express exclusivity. And living with the lowest starting pay rates in the 705 sector.

Wonder what the PAL rates will look like?
PAL already has Q400’s and Q400 rates. I believe they are pretty similar to Jazz.

https://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agree ... 19001a.pdf
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truedude
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Re: Negotiations

Post by truedude »

ant_321 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:02 am
rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:56 am
truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:21 am
Watch people really start to leave now. And they still have to staff these airplanes. Not sure why they would have an easier time of it than us.
Can’t wait to read the statement from the JAZ MEC……

“All is good. Nothing to see here. We are in control”.

Guess what? You are not in control. One only has to wonder what other developments are in the offing. Perhaps this is the “uncertainty” that CB referred to. This is not a good look for a group trapped in a 12 year (remaining) CBA that was sold based on guaranteed AC flow and Express exclusivity. And living with the lowest starting pay rates in the 705 sector.

Wonder what the PAL rates will look like?
PAL already has Q400’s and Q400 rates. I believe they are pretty similar to Jazz.

https://negotech.labour.gc.ca/eng/agree ... 19001a.pdf
The AC pilots had their B1s taken today. It seems AC jist wants to go to war with the pilots, and that is fine. They just sent the biggest single yet the Jazz is a sinking ship and we will see people really jump to life boats now.

These people in charge are really something else. They are playing this game with outdated rules.
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

Found this summary. You have to wonder if there is truly any hope for improved WAWCON in the Tier 2 sector in Canada.

PAL

Pay

Dash 8 Q400 Captain from 09/2022
1…$92.54
2…$94.95
3…$97.36
16…$125.50

Dash 8 Q400 Captain from 09/2023
1…$94.39
2…$96.85
3…$99.31
16…$128.01

Dash 8 Q400 Captain from 09/2024
1…$96.28
2…$98.79
3…$101.30
16…$130.57


Dash 8 100/300 Captain from 09/2022
1…$85.32
2…$87.72
3…$90.13
16…$121.68

Dash 8 100/300 Captain from 09/2023
1…$87.02
2…$89.48
3…$91.93
16…$124.11

Dash 8 100/300 Captain from 09/2024
1…$88.76
2…$91.27
3…$93.77
16…$126.59


Dash 8 100/300 and Q400 FO from 09/2022
1…$48.94
2…$51.31
3…$53.68
10…$73.27

Dash 8 100/300 and Q400 FO from 09/2023
1…$49.92
2…$52.34
3…$54.75
10…$74.73

Dash 8 100/300 and Q400 FO from 09/2024
1…$50.92
2…$53.38
3…$55.85
10…$76.23


Credit System:
50% deadhead
4 credits per reserve period
50% Duty rig starts 9 months from signing
25% Trip rig starts 15 months from signing
15 minutes credit for any taxi only segment (taxing from terminal-hangar etc)
1.5 times hourly pay for working day off or overtime
Overtime over 90
MMG is 78

Scheduling:
No more than 3 hour schedule change without consent, and 1.5 rate if you do agree to the change

New bidding system allows pilots to bid pairings by seniority

Minimum 12 days off per month

10 days vacation years 1-3
15 days years 3-10
20 days years 10-25
25 days years 25+

10 ‘stat day vacation days’ per year – so no more stat pay but an extra 10 days vacation to bid on top of the days above, so basically it’s 20 vacation days from year 1.

Days off guaranteed on each side of each 5 day block of vacation

60 sick credits per year, can carry over up to 80 each year, so potential max of 140/yr
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:15 am
The AC pilots had their B1s taken today. It seems AC jist wants to go to war with the pilots, and that is fine. They just sent the biggest single yet the Jazz is a sinking ship and we will see people really jump to life boats now.

These people in charge are really something else. They are playing this game with outdated rules.
Likely a response to receiving the reopener letter from the AC MEC/ALPA.
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Inverted2
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Inverted2 »

Didn’t our amazing 17 year contract state Jazz would do all the CPA flying? I guess that’s not being followed just like the AC flow isn’t being followed? :roll:
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

Inverted2 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:24 am Didn’t our amazing 17 year contract state Jazz would do all the CPA flying? I guess that’s not being followed just like the AC flow isn’t being followed? :roll:
Respect is a two way street.

Jazz pilots collectively cannot unilaterally modify the terms of the CBA. They need a willing partner to do so.

But Jazz pilots can individually make choices about where they choose to offer their professional services.

Lots are doing so as we speak. Todays corporate announcement won’t improve Pilot retention rates at Jazz.
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Inverted2
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Inverted2 »

Also where are they going to get pilots with those wages?
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Let’s Go Brandon
rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

Inverted2 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:30 am Also where are they going to get pilots with those wages?
If the bases are YYT/YHZ then you might find willing applicants due to cost-of-living.

And who knows, maybe there will be an associated flow deal?
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goleafsgo
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Re: Negotiations

Post by goleafsgo »

rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:01 am
a2btrail wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:52 am
superbilly24 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:48 am https://www.exchangeincomecorp.ca/wcm-d ... 065507.pdf

This can't be good for the Q400 operations on the east coast with Jazz. I didn't think another airline could operate Q400 for Air Canada Express with the current contract.
Correct. Jazz's service will be reduced as planned.
AC pilot scope (Article 1) does not specify how many Express operators AC can contract. It simply sets limits on the Express fleet and gauge.

It would be the CHR CPA that would contain any exclusively provisions. Seemingly, based on this announcement they either do not exist or have been or will be waived by CHR.

For those that were not around at the time, this has all of the appearance of GGN round 2. May even be Jazz operated (but AC controlled) Q400’s that are transferred to PAL.

Once again, obvious that AC has developed a mitigation plan to deal with the circumstance where Jazz/CHR cannot meet planned flying levels due to pilot staffing issues.
Jazz is supposed to operate 100% of the 70+ seat flying as per the amendment when sky was absorbed into jazz
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truedude
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Re: Negotiations

Post by truedude »

goleafsgo wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:40 am
rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:01 am
a2btrail wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:52 am

Correct. Jazz's service will be reduced as planned.
AC pilot scope (Article 1) does not specify how many Express operators AC can contract. It simply sets limits on the Express fleet and gauge.

It would be the CHR CPA that would contain any exclusively provisions. Seemingly, based on this announcement they either do not exist or have been or will be waived by CHR.

For those that were not around at the time, this has all of the appearance of GGN round 2. May even be Jazz operated (but AC controlled) Q400’s that are transferred to PAL.

Once again, obvious that AC has developed a mitigation plan to deal with the circumstance where Jazz/CHR cannot meet planned flying levels due to pilot staffing issues.
Jazz is supposed to operate 100% of the 70+ seat flying as per the amendment when sky was absorbed into jazz
Exactly. I suspect the union will push a grievance. And if AC does this, then the terms we absorbed Sky are also in violation.

This reeks of desperation on ACs part, and an attempt to scare us as if it were 20 years ago. They are like children throwing a temper tantrum.
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QKZXKV
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Re: Negotiations

Post by QKZXKV »

This is exactly why I was a loud NO to the 2019 contract. I didn't see any protection from this kind of BS. I remember a very vocal ALPA Canada person up talking with a very political campaign-esque speech about "leverage", "leverage", "leverage". Yup, looks like that really worked. Hey though, that "flow" was a no brainer wasn't it?
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hank998899
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Re: Negotiations

Post by hank998899 »

truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:48 am
goleafsgo wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:40 am
rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:01 am AC pilot scope (Article 1) does not specify how many Express operators AC can contract. It simply sets limits on the Express fleet and gauge.

It would be the CHR CPA that would contain any exclusively provisions. Seemingly, based on this announcement they either do not exist or have been or will be waived by CHR.

For those that were not around at the time, this has all of the appearance of GGN round 2. May even be Jazz operated (but AC controlled) Q400’s that are transferred to PAL.

Once again, obvious that AC has developed a mitigation plan to deal with the circumstance where Jazz/CHR cannot meet planned flying levels due to pilot staffing issues.
Jazz is supposed to operate 100% of the 70+ seat flying as per the amendment when sky was absorbed into jazz
Exactly. I suspect the union will push a grievance. And if AC does this, then the terms we absorbed Sky are also in violation.

This reeks of desperation on ACs part, and an attempt to scare us as if it were 20 years ago. They are like children throwing a temper tantrum.
Perhaps now we can finally strike? There are now two violations to the CBA… and more to come…
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Re: Negotiations

Post by BTD »

As I watch all this play out, I keep getting reminded of this quote: "I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort." Said by the captain of the Titanic.
Lies…It’s all lies.

Hawke collision


Olympic's first major mishap occurred on her fifth voyage on 20 September 1911, when she collided with the British cruiser HMS Hawke. The collision took place as Olympic and Hawke were running parallel to each other through the Solent. As Olympic turned to starboard, the wide radius of her turn took the commander of Hawke by surprise, and he was unable to take sufficient avoiding action. Hawke's bow, which had been designed to sink ships by ramming them, collided with Olympic's starboard side near the stern, tearing two large holes in Olympic's hull, above and below the waterline, resulting in the flooding of two of her watertight compartments and a twisted propeller shaft. Olympic settled slightly by the stern, but in spite of the damage was able to return to Southampton under her own power; no one was killed or seriously injured. HMS Hawke suffered severe damage to her bow and nearly capsized; she was repaired, but sunk by the German U-boat SM U-9 in October 1914.

Captain Edward Smith was in command of Olympic at the time of the incident. Two crew members, stewardess Violet Jessop and stoker Arthur John Priest, survived not only the collision with Hawke but also the later sinking of Titanic and the 1916 sinking of Britannic, the third ship of the class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Olym ... _collision

:)
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truedude
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Re: Negotiations

Post by truedude »

BTD wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:23 am
As I watch all this play out, I keep getting reminded of this quote: "I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort." Said by the captain of the Titanic.
Lies…It’s all lies.

Hawke collision


Olympic's first major mishap occurred on her fifth voyage on 20 September 1911, when she collided with the British cruiser HMS Hawke. The collision took place as Olympic and Hawke were running parallel to each other through the Solent. As Olympic turned to starboard, the wide radius of her turn took the commander of Hawke by surprise, and he was unable to take sufficient avoiding action. Hawke's bow, which had been designed to sink ships by ramming them, collided with Olympic's starboard side near the stern, tearing two large holes in Olympic's hull, above and below the waterline, resulting in the flooding of two of her watertight compartments and a twisted propeller shaft. Olympic settled slightly by the stern, but in spite of the damage was able to return to Southampton under her own power; no one was killed or seriously injured. HMS Hawke suffered severe damage to her bow and nearly capsized; she was repaired, but sunk by the German U-boat SM U-9 in October 1914.

Captain Edward Smith was in command of Olympic at the time of the incident. Two crew members, stewardess Violet Jessop and stoker Arthur John Priest, survived not only the collision with Hawke but also the later sinking of Titanic and the 1916 sinking of Britannic, the third ship of the class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Olym ... _collision

:)
The quote was from before that date.
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Re: Negotiations

Post by BTD »

truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:35 am
BTD wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:23 am
As I watch all this play out, I keep getting reminded of this quote: "I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort." Said by the captain of the Titanic.
Lies…It’s all lies.

Hawke collision


Olympic's first major mishap occurred on her fifth voyage on 20 September 1911, when she collided with the British cruiser HMS Hawke. The collision took place as Olympic and Hawke were running parallel to each other through the Solent. As Olympic turned to starboard, the wide radius of her turn took the commander of Hawke by surprise, and he was unable to take sufficient avoiding action. Hawke's bow, which had been designed to sink ships by ramming them, collided with Olympic's starboard side near the stern, tearing two large holes in Olympic's hull, above and below the waterline, resulting in the flooding of two of her watertight compartments and a twisted propeller shaft. Olympic settled slightly by the stern, but in spite of the damage was able to return to Southampton under her own power; no one was killed or seriously injured. HMS Hawke suffered severe damage to her bow and nearly capsized; she was repaired, but sunk by the German U-boat SM U-9 in October 1914.

Captain Edward Smith was in command of Olympic at the time of the incident. Two crew members, stewardess Violet Jessop and stoker Arthur John Priest, survived not only the collision with Hawke but also the later sinking of Titanic and the 1916 sinking of Britannic, the third ship of the class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Olym ... _collision

:)
The quote was from before that date.

Dang it. :(
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Fanblade
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:56 am
truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:21 am
Watch people really start to leave now. And they still have to staff these airplanes. Not sure why they would have an easier time of it than us.
Can’t wait to read the statement from the JAZ MEC……

“All is good. Nothing to see here. We are in control”.

Guess what? You are not in control. One only has to wonder what other developments are in the offing. Perhaps this is the “uncertainty” that CB referred to. This is not a good look for a group trapped in a 12 year (remaining) CBA that was sold based on guaranteed AC flow and Express exclusivity. And living with the lowest starting pay rates in the 705 sector.

Wonder what the PAL rates will look like?
Creating a CPA competitor to put a gun to the Jazz pilots heads worked once already.

You don’t think it would cross their minds to try a repeat?

My first comment is time. It takes years to build a replacement CPA carrier. The second is there is a shortage of pilots.

PAL will have similar issues with pilot recruitment if they hope to reach any reasonable size.

I think they are gaming you. Classic AC threatening to give all your flying away during negotiations
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truedude
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Re: Negotiations

Post by truedude »

Fanblade wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:43 am
rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:56 am
truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:21 am
Watch people really start to leave now. And they still have to staff these airplanes. Not sure why they would have an easier time of it than us.
Can’t wait to read the statement from the JAZ MEC……

“All is good. Nothing to see here. We are in control”.

Guess what? You are not in control. One only has to wonder what other developments are in the offing. Perhaps this is the “uncertainty” that CB referred to. This is not a good look for a group trapped in a 12 year (remaining) CBA that was sold based on guaranteed AC flow and Express exclusivity. And living with the lowest starting pay rates in the 705 sector.

Wonder what the PAL rates will look like?
Creating a CPA competitor to put a gun to the Jazz pilots heads worked once already.

You don’t think it would cross their minds to try a repeat?

My first comment is time. It takes years to build a replacement CPA carrier. The second is there is a shortage of pilots.

PAL will have similar issues with pilot recruitment if they hope to reach any reasonable size.

I think they are gaming you. Classic AC threatening to give all your flying away during negotiations
It is classic AC. They will likely threaten the 220 flying as well. It is the same playback they have used for decades, with no acknowledgment that the industry is different.
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Inverted2
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Inverted2 »

truedude wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:47 am
Fanblade wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:43 am
rudder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:56 am

Can’t wait to read the statement from the JAZ MEC……

“All is good. Nothing to see here. We are in control”.

Guess what? You are not in control. One only has to wonder what other developments are in the offing. Perhaps this is the “uncertainty” that CB referred to. This is not a good look for a group trapped in a 12 year (remaining) CBA that was sold based on guaranteed AC flow and Express exclusivity. And living with the lowest starting pay rates in the 705 sector.

Wonder what the PAL rates will look like?
Creating a CPA competitor to put a gun to the Jazz pilots heads worked once already.

You don’t think it would cross their minds to try a repeat?

My first comment is time. It takes years to build a replacement CPA carrier. The second is there is a shortage of pilots.

PAL will have similar issues with pilot recruitment if they hope to reach any reasonable size.

I think they are gaming you. Classic AC threatening to give all your flying away during negotiations
It is classic AC. They will likely threaten the 220 flying as well. It is the same playback they have used for decades, with no acknowledgment that the industry is different.
Have to hit back with refusal to do voluntary overtime, follow the contract to a T including MELs. Booking off when fatigued etc. Perhaps some resignations from the training department for good measure too?
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