Negotiations

[digits_]

- so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly.

That should set them up greatly to watch the autopilot fly!


Seriously tough, maybe if we would all stop bashing other areas of aviation, or other positions in the same bloody aircraft we work, life would be better.

[CaptDukeNukem]

- so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly.

That should set them up greatly to watch the autopilot fly!


Seriously tough, maybe if we would all stop bashing other areas of aviation, or other positions in the same bloody aircraft we work, life would be better.

I’m with digits. If you fly a Texas lawn dart or a Mew-Two, or a Q-four or a jungle jet, everyone is getting to where they wanna be.

[canadian_aviator_4]

How is Jazz going to pattern bargain like Flair, WJ, AC, Morningstar, Canadian North, etc..... when they are locked into a 17 year deal (2035)?

You're on pace to miss around 3-4 rounds of bargaining....

The people who voted this contract in are part of the problem. Hopefully they have had a mentality change since and now are promoting for better pay and conditions for all pilots.

[RockSalty]

A substantial pay bump for year 1-5. A moderate pay bump for all others but not necessarily linear. Partially accomplished by compressing the ridiculously long pay scales.

Flow rate slightly reduced but 100% guaranteed. Best way to accomplish this is a reserved number in a case where a pilot is not permitted or opts not to attend his/her designated AC PIT course. Such pilot shall NOT be replaced on that PIT course by another flow pilot.

Training pilot overrides must increase and be applied equally. A lack of training volunteers will otherwise become the choke point for replacing pilots lost to attrition.

All easily said but less easily done. Status quo is not working.

[Playing Devil's Advocate here..] So I'm at a party the other night, and I met a couple of people who had just been hired by Jazz. Great personalities, keen, etc.. But..low time/experience - as in ~1000hrs instructing experience - so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly. How much of a bump should they get in year one? As someone posted elsewhere on here a few months back, a Dash F/O is one of the easiest jobs out there - ILS to ILS, all the flight and fuel planning done for you, great MX, a dispatch centre to help you, and, if all else fails, then look left and say "you have control!" What's that actually worth? $40k? 50? 60? 70? Should there be a matrix for time/experience?

Agreed that the 17? year pay scale needs some tweaking.

Also, the top end. Why would someone earning, say, $130k flying medevac take a $50k paycut to $80 to work for Jazz, with a ?10 year wait to get back to $130? And, you've probably got to move to a ridiculously high COL area to do so..

Nobody in the left seat of a medevac bird is going to the regionals, everyone I know thats moved on has gone to AC or WJ

[rudder]

A substantial pay bump for year 1-5. A moderate pay bump for all others but not necessarily linear. Partially accomplished by compressing the ridiculously long pay scales.

Flow rate slightly reduced but 100% guaranteed. Best way to accomplish this is a reserved number in a case where a pilot is not permitted or opts not to attend his/her designated AC PIT course. Such pilot shall NOT be replaced on that PIT course by another flow pilot.

Training pilot overrides must increase and be applied equally. A lack of training volunteers will otherwise become the choke point for replacing pilots lost to attrition.

All easily said but less easily done. Status quo is not working.

[Playing Devil's Advocate here..] So I'm at a party the other night, and I met a couple of people who had just been hired by Jazz. Great personalities, keen, etc.. But..low time/experience - as in ~1000hrs instructing experience - so roughly 700hours going around in circles watching other people fly. How much of a bump should they get in year one? As someone posted elsewhere on here a few months back, a Dash F/O is one of the easiest jobs out there - ILS to ILS, all the flight and fuel planning done for you, great MX, a dispatch centre to help you, and, if all else fails, then look left and say "you have control!" What's that actually worth? $40k? 50? 60? 70? Should there be a matrix for time/experience?

Agreed that the 17? year pay scale needs some tweaking.

Also, the top end. Why would someone earning, say, $130k flying medevac take a $50k paycut to $80 to work for Jazz, with a ?10 year wait to get back to $130? And, you've probably got to move to a ridiculously high COL area to do so..

Nobody in the left seat of a medevac bird is going to the regionals, everyone I know thats moved on has gone to AC or WJ

If Jazz is serious about attracting and retaining qualified candidates, then right seat seat needs to start at least $65k and left seat needs to start at least $100k. Even at those rates pilots will realize there are better economic opportunities available elsewhere.

I could see a nominally lower non-ATPL rate applied to those candidates. In a perfect world, Jazz would not be hiring non-ATPL pilots. But it is not a perfect world.

[hithere]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

[canadian_aviator_4]

With current attrition, inability to follow the contract, and inaction to make any improvements I don’t see the company lasting past 2025. It has become one of the worst airlines to work for in North America and nothing seems to indicate things will improve anytime soon.
Attrition will only accelerate as everyone else makes gains.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

You’re right. Positive space travel at zero cost would absolutely help at a minimum. Even J class upgrades could probably hold down some commuters. I will politely disagree with one statement from your post. AC does not need to sign off on any agreement changes between Jazz and the pilot group. The fact is, the pilot contract is valid until 2035. Jazz need to up the scales and conditions. That’s entirely on them.

I will say, I was at sky, we had a CPA agreement also and a union and a contract….and protections and look what happened.

[cdnavater]

How is Jazz going to pattern bargain like Flair, WJ, AC, Morningstar, Canadian North, etc..... when they are locked into a 17 year deal (2035)?

You're on pace to miss around 3-4 rounds of bargaining....

The people who voted this contract in are part of the problem. Hopefully they have had a mentality change since and now are promoting for better pay and conditions for all pilots.

I’d say that we are both equally to blame, except our backs were against the wall and we had no choice whether perceived or real does not matter but who’s to blame for accepting those conditions. It’s not like it was a secret!
Speaking of, you are extremely unhappy at Jazz, there are plenty of jobs, why are you still here? It’s time for you to cut bait and run, your mental health depends on it.

[cdnavater]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

You’re right. Positive space travel at zero cost would absolutely help at a minimum. Even J class upgrades could probably hold down some commuters. I will politely disagree with one statement from your post. AC does not need to sign off on any agreement changes between Jazz and the pilot group. The fact is, the pilot contract is valid until 2035. Jazz need to up the scales and conditions. That’s entirely on them.

I will say, I was at sky, we had a CPA agreement also and a union and a contract….and protections and look what happened.

AC is the one holding the purse strings, Jazz is barely making any profit, therefore AC would have to pony up!
Chorus is making money but the board would not let an asset drag it down, they would not likely shuffle money from Chorus to Jazz for increased pilot pay

[hithere]

Jazz management is claiming the raises we are asking for would make the margins from the CPA evaporate. So to afford the raises, AC would need to be willing to renegotiate the CPA with larger margins. So yes AC needs to sign off on it.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Doesn’t chorus make money indirectly with jazz through the leasing of its aircraft? Otherwise, why would chorus still hold on to jazz. Would make more sense to sell, or spin into a separate company entirely not dragging down its balance sheets.

[futboler14]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

[canadian_aviator_4]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

By the time that happens I can only imagine jazz will be a shadow of what it once was, with attrition and retirements.

[goleafsgo]

Even if the company covered our benefits at 100% that would be a great increase on our take home pay, and our income tax deductions would stay the same. Honestly at this point I’d take that over a raise

[hithere]

The only problem with just covering 100% of the benefit premiums is that is does not help recruitment much because people don’t really appreciate how much we lose in deductions until they are already hired. It’s attracting them in the first place that is the problem, and they need to be able to advertise higher pay rates to get people in the door. But yes, 100% company contributions would feel like a raise to those of us that are already here.

[Timetoflyagain]

Also, the top end. Why would someone earning, say, $130k flying medevac take a $50k paycut to $80 to work for Jazz, with a ?10 year wait to get back to $130? And, you've probably got to move to a ridiculously high COL area to do so..
[/quote]

Nobody in the left seat of a medevac bird is going to the regionals, everyone I know thats moved on has gone to AC or WJ
[/quote]

…I used to fly medivacs…years worth. That company went bankrupt. I knew other pilots who also flew medivac. They’re dead now. Eventually even government contracts go bye bye. Eventually a dark snowy night onto an unplowed gravel runway will end up upside down. That’s why that driver is getting $130K/ year, and why I left it to get something safer, more secure and long term..as in retirement. It’s very unfortunate that the cost of that (currently) is a huge pay cut..but it’s about supply, demand and personal choices and situation.

[QKZXKV]

The reason we are able to negotiate inside a 17 year contract( now 12 years left) is the company cannot recruit/retain at the current pay rates. So Jazz management came to the union to negotiate. Why don't we have a new agreement yet? For the same reason Westjet doesn't have an agreement yet. Management(and I mean AC management because they would ultimately have to sign off on any substantial increases)is delusional. Not only do they refuse to address our horrendous pay, they also refuse to think outside the box by offering non-monetary benefits that would help. How about offering free/positive space commuting flights and hotels so that pilots are not forced to move to the most expensive cities in the country. US airlines are doing this for their commuters at both the CPA and mainline. Or do what Porter is doing-open up multiple virtual bases so that pilots can be based close to home.
AC pays the training costs for Jazz so it is incredibly ironic that there obstinance is costing them dearly as they lose so many Jazz Embraer Captains to Porter.
The Jazz contract ensures a minimum of 80, 76 seat aircraft from 2025 until 2035(and exclusivity on AC CPA work until 2025). If it weren't for that long term contract, I can totally see AC terminating the CPA in 2025(or perhaps earlier)because of our inability to staff our operations. So the "17 year deal" might not be such a bad thing after all. Without it, I can't see Jazz lasting much longer.

You’re right. Positive space travel at zero cost would absolutely help at a minimum. Even J class upgrades could probably hold down some commuters. I will politely disagree with one statement from your post. AC does not need to sign off on any agreement changes between Jazz and the pilot group. The fact is, the pilot contract is valid until 2035. Jazz need to up the scales and conditions. That’s entirely on them.

I will say, I was at sky, we had a CPA agreement also and a union and a contract….and protections and look what happened.

AC absolutely needs to sign off on it... they have a stake in ownership and a seat at the board that was included in the 2019 CPA amendments. Too simplistic to think otherwise.

[rudder]

I take it nothing tangible has really transpired (other than dialog between the four parties) since this thread was created 7 months ago?

Pretty slow moving.

Several meetings and several MEC bulletins later, what has changed?

Nothing. Other than dozens and dozens of pilots resigning from Jazz.

From the company perspective, doing nothing is a choice. They have made a choice.

And individual pilots are making their own choices.

[Inverted2]

But if you ask management: