Negotiations

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truedude
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Re: Negotiations

Post by truedude »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:04 am
truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 am If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.
People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.
Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over. And people need to feed their families. And the flat pay does not work for that.

And Jazz will lay in ruins soon, and the summer sched along with it. It is over all because of short sighted, arrogant, stupidity at AC. At least I will have a front row seat to watch it all come crumbling down.
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canadian_aviator_4
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Re: Negotiations

Post by canadian_aviator_4 »

truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 am If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.
Jazz deserves it for creating such a negative work environment that has no recognition of employees and contracts.
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KenoraPilot
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Re: Negotiations

Post by KenoraPilot »

Inverted2 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:00 am Maybe AC or Chorus had him removed? Jazz hasn’t exactly been delivering the goods for the CPA lately with the pilot shortages going on at Jazz.
No, it was Steve’s choice to leave for personal reasons.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Negotiations

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:39 am
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:04 am
truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 am If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.
People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.
Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over. And people need to feed their families. And the flat pay does not work for that.

And Jazz will lay in ruins soon, and the summer sched along with it. It is over all because of short sighted, arrogant, stupidity at AC. At least I will have a front row seat to watch it all come crumbling down.
I’ll watch from a second row. But i agree it will be entertaining.
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Rowdy
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Rowdy »

Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.
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airbussy
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Re: Negotiations

Post by airbussy »

Rowdy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:54 pm Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.
Especially with YEG and YXX bases. Sure it's "Swoop" but now with the same pay uplift and better working conditions (let's be honest the AIP will pass)...
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airbussy
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Re: Negotiations

Post by airbussy »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:29 am AC will absolutely have to respond by getting rid of flat pay or drastically raising it. Alot of recent new hires were Encore/WJ mainline/Swoop pilots and now this recruiting pipeline will dry up.
AC is going to be in a tough spot. I am quite confident the MEC at AC will not just give the company "free" raises (yeah I know it sounds funny, but that's what it is... a free raise to fix their hiring problem). The MEC will 100% use this to leverage other gains in the contract.

That is of course if the new 1-6+ year FO pay rumour at WJ is true. If the numbers I've seen are true, they'll be making close to our 787 FO wages at year 5/6.
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Negotiations

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Rowdy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:54 pm Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.
I thought it was spelled : “turonna”
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yhz41
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Re: Negotiations

Post by yhz41 »

Rowdy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:54 pm Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.
Weren't you at AC?
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Rowdy
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Rowdy »

yhz41 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:42 pm
Rowdy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:54 pm Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.
Weren't you at AC?

I was not and unless flat pay disappears and they magically allow base choice in initial, I never will be.
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Fanblade
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Fanblade »

Rowdy wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 7:04 am
yhz41 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 8:42 pm
Rowdy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:54 pm Lots of us with kiddos and mortgages can't afford flat pay at AC nor the move to Tuhranna.

WJ is looking better and better.
Weren't you at AC?

I was not and unless flat pay disappears and they magically allow base choice in initial, I never will be.
How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?

I sound it out this way. Trauma. The M annunciated like an N. So TrauNa.

If you go there during a snowstorm you get TrauNatized

FOS and the 10 year deal were a result of a TrauNa Bond.
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joefo
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Re: Negotiations

Post by joefo »

truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:39 am
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:04 am
truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 am If the new F/O wages at Westjet are even close to true, I suspect our YYC base will be left in shambles. Might even see some leave AC. Again, of true, it destorys ACs 4 year flat pay concept.
People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.
Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over.
What makes you think that?
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: Negotiations

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

Fanblade wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 7:17 am ...How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?...
That's a great question that many more people need to ask it. No matter how our politicians or executives try to spin this, the fact is (and will remain) that Toronto and Vancouver are out of (financial) reach even for those who make well over six figures. Major cities in our countries have become unaffordable*** for the majority of Canadians.

People like myself and most of my airline colleagues can not simply afford to live there. Can we live there? YES, but we'd have no money for anything else and we'd have to live in shoebox apartments. That's just not possible, or worth it, for those of us with children. You can't raise two kids in a two bedroom condo. Add to that things like childcare, higher insurance rates and so on and you'll quickly realize that it's just impossible.

So what does that mean for the average pilot? It means that we have to live further and further away from our home base. Some commute by air, some by car, some by public transport, but this country's public transportation system is below that of a 2nd world commie country (I should know) and insanely expensive. One only needs to look at VIA Rail ticket prices and you'll notice that more often than not, it's more expensive to take a train than fly. A 3 hour trip by train should not be $100. That's mental. (And our politicians wonder why Canadians don't take public transport more often)

This leaves a lot of us, like myself, forced to drive back and forth to work. Most of the guys and gals I fly with have a commute that's longer than 1.5 hours by car, sometimes as far as 4. With that being said, commuters are forced to stay in their positions to be able to bid 3/4 day pairings. That results in us having to drive to work 4 - 5 times a month. If we did single days, we'd have to drive up to 16 to 18 days a month. You can quickly see how that is just impossible to do, both from a financial aspect and fatigue factor. I won't even mention the fact that we can't be on reserve... EVER.

So, we're stuck between a rock and hard place. Some have found "creative" ways like getting a crashpad, staying with family, side girlfriends :roll: etc. That's not for everyone. I would personally rather quit flying than having to share a room with two other people. Yes, my choices have consequences and I accept them.

So what's this long rambling that I'm going on about? Airlines in Canada need to look not only at financial compensation, but also offering working conditions that reflect the fact that most of its pilots will have to commute at one point or another.

Just my two cents...

*** My definition of "affordable is this: Average family, with average income spending 33% of their take home pay on their mortgage & housing costs (property tax, etc.) and paying it off in 25 years.
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Fanblade
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Re: Negotiations

Post by Fanblade »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 5:08 am
Fanblade wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 7:17 am ...How much is a lack of a commuting policy impacting your decision?...
That's a great question that many more people need to ask it. No matter how our politicians or executives try to spin this, the fact is (and will remain) that Toronto and Vancouver are out of (financial) reach even for those who make well over six figures. Major cities in our countries have become unaffordable*** for the majority of Canadians.

People like myself and most of my airline colleagues can not simply afford to live there. Can we live there? YES, but we'd have no money for anything else and we'd have to live in shoebox apartments. That's just not possible, or worth it, for those of us with children. You can't raise two kids in a two bedroom condo. Add to that things like childcare, higher insurance rates and so on and you'll quickly realize that it's just impossible.

So what does that mean for the average pilot? It means that we have to live further and further away from our home base. Some commute by air, some by car, some by public transport, but this country's public transportation system is below that of a 2nd world commie country (I should know) and insanely expensive. One only needs to look at VIA Rail ticket prices and you'll notice that more often than not, it's more expensive to take a train than fly. A 3 hour trip by train should not be $100. That's mental. (And our politicians wonder why Canadians don't take public transport more often)

This leaves a lot of us, like myself, forced to drive back and forth to work. Most of the guys and gals I fly with have a commute that's longer than 1.5 hours by car, sometimes as far as 4. With that being said, commuters are forced to stay in their positions to be able to bid 3/4 day pairings. That results in us having to drive to work 4 - 5 times a month. If we did single days, we'd have to drive up to 16 to 18 days a month. You can quickly see how that is just impossible to do, both from a financial aspect and fatigue factor. I won't even mention the fact that we can't be on reserve... EVER.

So, we're stuck between a rock and hard place. Some have found "creative" ways like getting a crashpad, staying with family, side girlfriends :roll: etc. That's not for everyone. I would personally rather quit flying than having to share a room with two other people. Yes, my choices have consequences and I accept them.

So what's this long rambling that I'm going on about? Airlines in Canada need to look not only at financial compensation, but also offering working conditions that reflect the fact that most of its pilots will have to commute at one point or another.

Just my two cents...

*** My definition of "affordable is this: Average family, with average income spending 33% of their take home pay on their mortgage & housing costs (property tax, etc.) and paying it off in 25 years.

I think that was a great ramble.

To make it worse Air Canada is stuck in the past when it comes to commuting. There is no policy at all. It’s true. A new hire commuting that doesn’t make it to work has their employment at risk. If you are beyond probation there is still the risk of disciplinary action. And yes it happens.

I don’t even think management even sees this as an issue for them. Yet it is. If there is a supply shortage you want to correct and smooth out any supply chain issues.

But it is like talking to a wall
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kiaszceski
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Re: Negotiations

Post by kiaszceski »

They are Air Canada. Who cares about commuting policy when people are ALL willing to go to AC and pay for a crashpad with the hope of flying the A360?

Until there's an accident caused by fatigue nothing will change.
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truedude
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Re: Negotiations

Post by truedude »

joefo wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:39 pm
truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:39 am
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:04 am

People will still be filling AC classes, I don't expect flat pay to change much while that's still happening. The FO rates increasing at WJ is long overdue, but don't forget (even with a bit of moving around on the Swoop rebid) that FOs here still have 6 years of reserve and 15 year upgrades. AC is miles ahead for career progression. WJ will now be the best option for those who can't leave YYC though.
Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over.
What makes you think that?
Math
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Negotiations

Post by flyingcanuck »

truedude wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:48 am
joefo wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:39 pm
truedude wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:39 am

Those quick upgrade days at AC are near over.
What makes you think that?
Math
they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

flyingcanuck wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:09 am
truedude wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:48 am
joefo wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:39 pm

What makes you think that?
Math
they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?
6000 by summer 2025, correct?
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truedude
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Re: Negotiations

Post by truedude »

rudder wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:12 am
flyingcanuck wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:09 am
truedude wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:48 am

Math
they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?
6000 by summer 2025, correct?
Yes, and the ratio of Captains to FOs about 60/40. So do the math. If you aren't hired in the next 6 to 12 months, it will be years before you see an upgrade, and that is if there is no major recession.
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rudder
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Re: Negotiations

Post by rudder »

truedude wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:18 am
rudder wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:12 am
flyingcanuck wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:09 am

they want another ~1300 pilots by the end of next year, so what math you doing?
6000 by summer 2025, correct?
Yes, and the ratio of Captains to FOs about 60/40. So do the math. If you aren't hired in the next 6 to 12 months, it will be years before you see an upgrade, and that is if there is no major recession.
Just trivia but 60/40 is not the case at AC. As a percentage of total positions, CA are less than 50% (44.6% to be exact).
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