NEW Twin Otters????

[Flybabe]

WILL VINTAGE DE HAVILLAND AIRPLANES RETURN?

The type certificates for all of de Havilland Canada's wild animals, from the Chipmunk and Beaver to the Otter and Caribou, have been purchased by Viking Air of Sidney, British Columbia. Viking Air will decide this summer whether to put the DHC-6 Twin Otter back in production, said company President David Curtis. At the time of purchase, the type certificates were held by Bombardier. The transfer of the type certificates had first been announced a year ago when Viking took over Bombardier's service support for the seven models. The certificates include the DHC-1 Chipmunk, the DHC-2 Beaver, the DHC-3 Otter, the DHC-4 Caribou, the DHC-5 Buffalo, the 20-passenger DHC-6 Twin Otter, and the DHC-7 (Dash-7). Viking Air has had the rights for spare parts manufacturing for the Beaver and Otter since 1983, and has been a major supplier of spare parts to Bombardier for the Twin Otter and Dash-series airplanes.

Interesting.. think it will happen?? What would the cost of a "new" -6 be?

[just curious]

Well... a well-equipped used one runs 2 mill USD with dash 34's and a steam panel, so I would think... more than that.

[rd1331]

I would say they are 2 Mil used right now because they are not in production, i bet that will go down, but who knows. Would love to see them start production again, would be good.

[CAL]

Following this thread, In modern history what would you say has been the workhorse of the Canadian Aviation Industry? from the Artic to Southern Ontario, from the West Coast to Newfoundland and all points in between.

Not Including the majors...that would be easy Airbus/Boeing

just realized kinda hijacked your thread flybabe...I was just leaning towards the DHC-6...

[wallypilot]

they've been talking about this for a while...i remember first hearing about VIking trying to get the right a couple years back. Will be interesting to see if anything comes of it.

[Doc]

Nope. Somebody's "pipe dream"....just isn't enough "off-strip" work any more for new Twin Otters! Insurance for off-strip work, plus, for non off-strip work, they just burn way too much fuel per mile flown/pound carried? They'd be more $$ than a turbine Dak, ie Basler, and less than half the load? Nope.

[Rowdy]

Lots of work still for em. I know of a couple operators who are looking to pick up one if they can find a decent beast.

Lots of float work out there for the mighty -2's -3's and 6's

I'm sure a production run between 50 and 100 would be profitable.

[goldeneagle]

I'm sure a production run between 50 and 100 would be profitable.

The Twotter fills a very specific market niche, and every year, there's fewer airplanes available that can fill that niche. Some are retired as 'just to old to bother with', some get wrecked, but the work is still there. We are going to see more of the older stuff get regulated out of the sky the same way the mallard went.

Viking has the type certificate, and they are fishing in the market, looking for demand. There will be 2 factors that need to line up, and then it'll be a reality, otherwise, it wont ever happen. First, we need the demand to push the price of a used Twotter into the ballpark of what it would cost Viking to build one from scratch. The second, and it's more arbitrary, is the availability of a government subsidy to kickstart the process. When cost of production less government subsidies gets close to the market price of a used twotter, we will see new ones getting built. If/when that happens, there's a few things to watch for.

a) Modern electronic panels are cheaper to build than steam driven if you start with nothing. It'll be all solid state, fully modern, and LIGHTER than steam.

b) I would expect an engine change, they'll build the new ones with something a little more fuel efficient. Viking has plenty of experience engineering engine mods with the -2 and -3, it would be pretty much a no brainer to do that on new -6 stuff.

c) Twotter was arbitrarily placed at the 12,500 mark to keep it within various certification classes, made it a lot easier for operators to just buy it and bring it online back then. Today, operators are much better versed in the paperwork end of the industry, and with the cost of flying airplanes what it is, I cant help but wonder if a new twotter comes in as a 14,000 pound airplane. The required licensing upgrades today are not viewed as the obstacle they were 20 years ago.

How much would the economics of a twotter on floats change if the engines were a little more fuel efficient, all up weight increased to 14,000, all at the expense of maybe 500 feet run on the water?

There's a market for that airplane, and various talk we hear today, is fishing for interest and money. Oh, and the politics are grand, with Borek pushing politicians from Alberta, Viking pushing here in BC, maybe a little push from some west coast operators that get hamstrung by the twotter range/payload problems going to the fishing lodges. Mix into that a fresh government in Ottawa that wants to appeal strongly in the west, to folks that are sick and tired of seeing all the airplane construction government giveaways going to montreal, we have a recipe in place. Mix well, shake, stir, bake for one more federal election, and voila, we end up with a brand spanking new airplane manufacturing operation, fresh out of the taxpayers pocket, firmly parked in western canada. To really make this recipe 'sing' to the politicians, we've got engineering already located in BC, the real key to it now, manufacturing in Alberta, combined with just enough talk in the press that the whole issue is primed and ready to become an election issue by mid summer.

Gawd, this is soooooo ready for Canadian poilitcs, and I'd love to see some brand new twotters hit the market, and I'd love to see my tax dollars pissed into that sinkhole instead of the one out in montreal....

[co-joe]

I would say they are 2 Mil used right now because they are not in production, i bet that will go down, but who knows. Would love to see them start production again, would be good.

Look at what happened when Cessna started rolling "old" models off the assembly line. They were so expensive in comparison to the 30 year old planes that overnight, prices for the old ones went up drastically. I bet a new Otter would cost more than double or tripple what an old bird goes for. That alone would push up the prices of old ones.

[hopper]

Get your heads out of the Canadian Snow and I believe you'll see there is a strong market for the next Twin Otter. It will be certified above 12500, it will be lighter and faster and have all the stol characteristics that make it valuable now. Canadian operators may not have the $$ to make it viable, however consider there is a much larger demand overseas now. Maldives is constantly expanding and looking for lighter, faster machines, South East Asian and Middle Eastern company's are just realizing what the current Twin Otter can do on Floats and are interested. When you look at Thailand, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and many others...there is the realization that Float planes will get tourists and supplies directly to resorts from the main hubs, in most cases in less than an hour when it could take up to 8 or more hours by road and boat. As bold as this statement is..I believe the Twin Otter on floats may still be in its infancy on a global scale. Nothing else can withstand the stress of landing and take off in adverse ocean conditions and meet this continued demand for quick transfer from hub to muliple point seaside and island destinations, safely and effectively.

[xsbank]

A Rubber Duck sells for 30 mil plus parts etc. A 'new' twin Otter would go for the high teens, plus floats...also, don't forget a T.O. would never get certified today, so the 'new' T.O. would be a different bird altogether.

[co-joe]

A Rubber Duck sells for 30 mil plus parts etc. A 'new' twin Otter would go for the high teens, plus floats...also, don't forget a T.O. would never get certified today, so the 'new' T.O. would be a different bird altogether.

yeah that's what I figure. If the new bird sells for 10 mil all of a sudden those 3 mil old ones will go up to five overnight.

The new 172 was like 150 large and all of a sudden 40K 30 yr old buck 72's went to 60K overnight just to take up the slack.

[WJflyer]

A Chinese Twin Otter knock off is on the market; the Harbin Y-12. Sold in North America by Canadian Aerospace Group (CAG) and its Panda Aircraft Company subsidiary. The airplane has garnered the nickname of "Twin Panda". They have the same flexibility as the Twin Otter; they are float certified, STOL, etc.

[newf found flyer]

air lab used to have some good otters there but them new ones would be a treat

[. ._]

Yeah, that Y-12 does look kinda twotterish.



I don't know if I'd trust the Chinese quality or engineering of it though...

-istp

[just curious]

The Panda, while cute and Twin Otter-like, is too small.

[bob sacamano]

Yeah, that Y-12 does look kinda twotterish.



I don't know if I'd trust the Chinese quality or engineering of it though...

-istp

Everything else you own is probably Chinese made no?

[North Shore]

Everything else you own is probably Chinese made no?

Damn straight it is, and I have to replace it due to piss-poor quality every year!

[. ._]

Everything else you own is probably Chinese made no?

Pretty much, but I wouldn't fly my computer chair or Dollarama scissors either.

-istp

[duplicate2]

...also, don't forget a T.O. would never get certified today, so the 'new' T.O. would be a different bird altogether.

If Viking is working with the original type cert then it wouldn't necessarily have to meet all of the current requirements I believe. Same as Gulfstream, they'd never get those big fat widows certified today but they're still okay because it all traces back to the GI.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[bob sacamano]

Everything else you own is probably Chinese made no?

Damn straight it is, and I have to replace it due to piss-poor quality every year!

Next time don't be so piss-cheep, spend the extra buck and get the one made in Taiwan.

Isn't Airbus subcontracting to China these days?

[oldtimer]

goldeneagle summed up up pretty well except the 12500 MTOW was the maximum allowed under the existing rules when the airplane was first certified. Now, it will either have to be certtified as a normal category airplane with a maximum of 9 seats or as a commuter category airplane and I do not think the airplane can meet the one engine inoperative climb requirements without a major redesign and a major increase in horsepower which will make the airplane a whole new animal. It is my humble opinion that a clean sheet airplane may be easier. Having said that, I think the Canadian airplane manufacturing industry is about due for a major breakthrough and we are capable of doing it. All we need is a market. Unfortunately, we need a rather large market with deep pockets.

[ch135146]

...the Canadian airplane manufacturing industry is about due for a major breakthrough...

Maybe it could leap forward by not living on the backs of us taxpayers?

[bmc]

Doesn't the Twin Otter wing have a time life of 20,000 or 30,000 hours? I remember hearing that years ago and wonder if that's been raised or if it's true.

[twotterflyer]

I fly two of them over 33000 hours and another one is close to 33000 hours! they still fly good!!