Engine Failure while Entering Hold

[TopperHarley]

Hey guys,

Assume you're flying a twin and entering a hold, and just as you cross the beacon, your engine fails. Would you continue in the turn and enter the hold as cleared (assuming you are able to maintain positive control), or would you just level off and go through all the checks, totally disregarding the hold entry/clearance?

I know there are many factors to consider, but I think that if you are able to maintain control, you should just continue with the hold entry, get things settled, then make the radio call for a priority landing. If you completely disregard the hold clearance, you could possibly venture into the unprotected side of the hold, or, your altitude may not be high enough to meet obstacle clearance outside of this protected area.

Any thoughts?

[metal overcast]

First things first.
Fly the airplane!
Get a quick call out that you have had an engine failure and tell them to stand by.
They( ATC )will clear the way for you.
Take care of things get back to them and I am pretty sure you will be landing very soon.

[flynbutcher]

C-hris, you answered your own question.

[Clothesliner]

One thing that stuck in my formative years in aviation (this might have come from Clunckdriver...): In an emergency (and in any other normal phase of flying for that matter), the order of priority of our real-time duty as pilots is:

1. Aviate

2. Navigate

3. Communicate

In other words: You can't do part 2 unless you're sure part 1 is happening (i.e. staying in protected airspace becomes academic if you're airspeed is making a mad rush toward Vmca or lower). Part 3 is also secondary to knowing where you are and where you are going (telling ATC you're having problems is less important than making sure you're not about to shorten some spruce trees).
If an emergency is happening, do what you need to do and then let ATC know about it. In an emergency we are expected and given the right to do what we need to ensure our (and our passengers', if we have them) safety.

[Canus Chinookus]

hey, why did your hypothetical engine fail? Low on Gas? If so, I'd be beelining it to the threshold with a call to ATC to get people the hell outta the way.

[Otter envy]

You better belive that you should control the aircraft first!

Because if you are "timeing , turning , throttle...ing and then talking" , and the aircraft is slowely flirting with Vmc, you had might as well be "kicking , pulling and holding!!!"

As the old flight instructor use to say "F.T.F.P!!"

( translation -- fly the f_ _ KING plane )

Then let em know what is going on.

Stay alert, watch for other airplanes.

[xsbank]

Clothesliner has it right.

Don't forget there is a reason you are in the hold, so don't just buggar off where you feel like, lest you be RA-ing everyone else in the area.

An engine failure in cruise is not critical (unless its a PC-12!). Just deal with it.

[goldeneagle]

Hey guys,

Assume you're flying a twin and entering a hold, and just as you cross the beacon, your engine fails. Would you continue in the turn and enter the hold as cleared (assuming you are able to maintain positive control), or would you just level off and go through all the checks, totally disregarding the hold entry/clearance?

I know there are many factors to consider, but I think that if you are able to maintain control, you should just continue with the hold entry, get things settled, then make the radio call for a priority landing. If you completely disregard the hold clearance, you could possibly venture into the unprotected side of the hold, or, your altitude may not be high enough to meet obstacle clearance outside of this protected area.

Any thoughts?

Lots of thoughts, but, the first thing that comes to mind, is a tired old saying, situational awareness. These days, the only reason you see holds (outside of training) is waiting for traffic to call down and clear ahead of you on the IFR arrival, in non radar environments.

If your hold is on an IFR arrival into castlegar, and you are being held pending down and clear from somebody ahead on the approach, dont think you wanna be making arbitrary 'strait ahead' runs for very long, there's a lot of cumulus granite in the vicinity. On the other hand, if you are at tofino holding for the same reason, you may want to consider taking up a southwest heading, there's 5000 miles of ocean ahead.

If you were flying for me, and couldn't manage to keep control of the airplane managing initial engine out checks in a turn, well, I'd suggest you head back to flight school for a while. The ONLY reason you'd be concerned about aircraft control, is because the airplane is flying you, instead of the other way around. If the failure during a level flight hold entry turn is a problem, what's going to happen if that failure happens during a complex IFR departure, with climb gradient requirements? Castlegar, Penticton, Smithers, Terrace all come to mind. You are going to be required to navigate in cloud, maintain climb gradients, and deal with securing an engine all at the same time. The penalty for screwing the pooch, is unplanned flight into cumulus granite.

And that's why I say, it all boils down to the tired old saying, situational awareness. What you do will be completely a function of the situation, where you are, whats around, and what are your options. In the worst case scenario, there is no option other than to fly your clearance, because deviation from the clearance means meeting up with the grim reaper. In the best case scenario, doesn't matter where you go, there is nothing to hit.

I'm an absolute hard ass when it comes to these kind of things on a checkride with my folks. I know there is leeway for things like deviate to fly strait ahead while dealing with things, heck, flite schools even teach it that way. I allow no leeway on a checkride. Murphy wrote a law, and that law tells us, if an engine is going to quit, it's going to do so while at climb power on the climb out of castlegar on a really cruddy day, not while the airplane is fat and happy doing holds on the Whatcom VOR. Bottom line, anybody can deal with problems when it's easy, you will demonstrate the ability to fly the airplane to the numbers when it's hard, or you will not fly the airplane, that's my attitude. Maybe I've got it all wrong, but, I think this industry would be a lot better off if a lot more check pilots took this attitude within 703 operations. I have absolutely no problem telling a candidate they are not up to standard. Bottom line, if I wouldn't be comfortable sending the wife and kids off with the candidate into a shitty west coast day, I'm not able to send my customers either.

[. ._]

I was told on my multi-IFR flight test by the examiner, and this is almost verbatim, "YOU'RE the pilot in command! YOU tell ATC what you want!"

Another great pilot I've flown with said, "NEVER be afraid to say that word- MAYDAY. If your plane isn't flying perfectly, it's a situation that you MUST get on the ground, and MAYDAY gets ATC's attention. Once you're ALIVE on the ground, any Transport Canada stuff is inconsequential."

-istp

[Doc]

C-HRIS....what are you thinking? A thread where somebody might learn something?
I'm going to assume this engine failure takes place during a training session? Everybody seems to be on the same page, with "fly the airplane first". This is good. And while I am for sure on that page as well, circumstances alter cases. Situational awareness enters into the equation a little. Where are you in relation to other traffic? Is there a guy holding 1000' above, and below you? How's your fuel? How's the preformance of the aircraft.....an engine failure is always an emergency, but it is way more so on a Travel Air, with four on board, than it is on a Beech 200, with just the crew! You have to do what suits the situation...but, by all means....fly the airplane first!
Me? I'd continue to enter the hold. In training, perhaps you could brief your training captain, that in a steeper turn, you would make the turn less steep? But, I'd do all that fancy "engine failure stuff" for which I'm famous, while turning to the proper heading, holding altitude within inches! HEHE!
The main thing...after flying the airplane.....is dont do anything stupid fast. I love that line!

[Cat Driver]

The most important issue non of you mentioned is what ever you do don't let your timing in the hold change...remember timing is everything...nothing more embarassing than arrive back at the fix several seconds late....

...so if you see your time getting out of whack due to loss of airspeed ram in more power....don't believe all that B.S. about minimum control speed and all that training crap..timing is what counts.

Cat

[Doc]

Cat's right...timing first. Doesn't really matter if you roll inverted! Be on time!!!