How long to get YYC base

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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

If they are as a DEC at Swoop they wood become an F/O at either WestJet or Swoop depending on what their seniority would let them hold.
Assuming the company and Union agree to ALPA’s position. If they were hired as an F/O they would still be an F/O.
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Commonwealth
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by Commonwealth »

3 honest questions here:

I personally have never heard of a system wide rebid. Is there precedence in North America for something like this at an airline WestJets size?

In the scenario mentioned earlier where Swoop Captains are remade as FOs what happens to their pay? If their pay is reduced are they being constructively dismissed?

If a unionized employee feels they are being constructively dismissed do they have recourse?

Any insight is appreciated.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

Commonwealth wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:13 am 3 honest questions here:

I personally have never heard of a system wide rebid. Is there precedence in North America for something like this at an airline WestJets size?

In the scenario mentioned earlier where Swoop Captains are remade as FOs what happens to their pay? If their pay is reduced are they being constructively dismissed?

If a unionized employee feels they are being constructively dismissed do they have recourse?

Any insight is appreciated.
WestJet has set the new bar in terms of contempt towards their pilots in recent years. I have yet to hear of another example of a ‘B’ scale pay system at North American carriers, so no, I think we’re in uncharted waters here. There will be some hurt egos, but when people are holding the left seat 10 years out of seniority what other recourse does the union have once pay parity is achieved? Flair and Lynx still need DECs I believe so at least that option is available for any Swoop captains that don’t wish to move to the right seat.
It’s a good question you’re asking though and I’m not sure how this will play out to be honest.
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averageatbest
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by averageatbest »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:09 amI have yet to hear of another example of a ‘B’ scale pay system at North American carriers, so no, I think we’re in uncharted waters here.

It’s a good question you’re asking though and I’m not sure how this will play out to be honest.
Air Canada Cargo 767s.

It is a good question and we are in uncharted territory. A rebid will not happen because the company will not give up it's two-tiered compensation structure.
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

averageatbest wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:15 am
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:09 amI have yet to hear of another example of a ‘B’ scale pay system at North American carriers, so no, I think we’re in uncharted waters here.

It’s a good question you’re asking though and I’m not sure how this will play out to be honest.
Air Canada Cargo 767s.

It is a good question and we are in uncharted territory. A rebid will not happen because the company will not give up it's two-tiered compensation structure.
Good point, I suppose Rouge too until that was fixed. But we're not talking anywhere close to the B-scale 50% pay difference for captains we see between Swoop and Mainline. Swoop is dead in the water as it is, no one will bid across to there and they've all but given up on hiring.
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averageatbest
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by averageatbest »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:34 am Good point, I suppose Rouge too until that was fixed. But we're not talking anywhere close to the B-scale 50% pay difference for captains we see between Swoop and Mainline. Swoop is dead in the water as it is, no one will bid across to there and they've all but given up on hiring.
You can ignore the people who would go to Swoop willingly, but doing so will blindfold you during battle.

The benefit to Swoop is a quicker upgrade time resulting in higher pay sooner and PIC time. Pilots who live in or around Edmonton, Abbotsford, and Hamilton wanting a shorter commute and less time between parking and getting to the gate might find it worth it too.
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pacman007
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by pacman007 »

I fell like I heard this story before…. What happened To the original swoop pilots? Didn’t they get booted to FO also?
It’s never a good idea to take a Capt seat out of seniority.
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elite
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by elite »

pacman007 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:13 am I don’t think your union would allow a Capt 10 years out of seniority, my guess would be a 737 rebid. All swoop pilots would be in a position they can actually hold. If you want to be on the “list” you must hold the position you can hold on the list.
Well ace, that ain’t my union, but I’m sure you’ll tell us if YOUR union tries to reinvent the wheel again! Why would you want a rebid? Have other pilots not been able to bid up until now? What was stopping them? Will there be a rebid every time some one doesn’t like things? For instance, at Air Canada 737 or 767 might go junior for now for whatever reason, when and if conditions change, should there be a rebid too?!
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by RockSalty »

elite wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:37 pm
pacman007 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:13 am I don’t think your union would allow a Capt 10 years out of seniority, my guess would be a 737 rebid. All swoop pilots would be in a position they can actually hold. If you want to be on the “list” you must hold the position you can hold on the list.
Well ace, that ain’t my union, but I’m sure you’ll tell us if YOUR union tries to reinvent the wheel again! Why would you want a rebid? Have other pilots not been able to bid up until now? What was stopping them? Will there be a rebid every time some one doesn’t like things? For instance, at Air Canada 737 or 767 might go junior for now for whatever reason, when and if conditions change, should there be a rebid too?!
If the only reason you were able to hold a swoop CA position is that more senior people didn’t want to do it for swoop pay, but now the position is paid the same as mainline and is now actually desirable to more people, is it really “fair” for you to keep that captain spot several years out of seniority?
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cloak
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by cloak »

I believe the MEC’s position is divisive and counterproductive. I do not recall any questions in their survey that would lead them to a rebid. There can’t be a rebid every time there is a change somewhere. The system has already been flushed through the arbitration and again through the pandemic and another rebid is too disruptive to too many people, and too expensive when the company is trying to recover. There have been so many recalls and so much emotions. As representatives of a democratic organization responsible to all due-paying members, they should be more diplomatic, focus on improving conditions for all pilots, and represent all pilots.
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cdnavater
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by cdnavater »

pacman007 wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:13 am I don’t think your union would allow a Capt 10 years out of seniority, my guess would be a 737 rebid. All swoop pilots would be in a position they can actually hold. If you want to be on the “list” you must hold the position you can hold on the list.
Our union would, they were hired as DEC and then some WJ pilots bid it for their own reasons, now that the field is changing you expect them to go back because you don’t like their choice.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t think they should have been there in the first place but they’re going to be at the bottom of the list until A, they can’t take the lifestyle bottom of the list and bid an FO spot or B, they move up due to hiring but even then if there is hiring and open Captain spots don’t you think they will be filled internally by more senior pilots.
Leaving them there is condemning them to a very long time of being super junior, isn’t that punishment enough.
Me personally, my hope would be a vacancy bid for more Captains and push them even further down, but we don’t have a bump and flush in our contract, the only way to flush would be a down bid company wide and then when needed a vacancy bid, which again would be open to all. We do have reinstatement language but I believe even that still requires the seniority to hold the spot.
I say, leave them at the bottom!
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

Upgrades at WJ are around the 10 year mark for YYZ, and closer to 15 for YYC. There is seldom any growth at this company, the latest bid had precisely ZERO upgrades. Damn f*cking right Swoop captains should go back to the right seat once the pay is doubled. They're sitting in a seat TEN YEARS out of seniority in some cases. Swoop was a "f*ck you" airline created on the exact day that the WJ pilots unionized. It has served its purpose in whipsawing and for those that took the left seat there (and stayed post-covid) in hopes of jumping the line, tough shit. Can't say you didn't foresee this coming. I do understand Swoop makes sense for those in YEG, however the company announced recently they are planning a YEG base soon, so that will be a consolation.
Many people at WJ will never see a left seat, and for those FOs that have waited patiently for ten+ years it would be unconscionable to accept that someone OTS with a few months seniority is able to keep a captain spot at mainline wages.
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averageatbest
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by averageatbest »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:10 am Many people at WJ will never see a left seat, and for those FOs that have waited patiently for ten+ years it would be unconscionable to accept that someone OTS with a few months seniority is able to keep a captain spot at mainline wages.
I'm sure that I'm going to regret saying this, but someone choosing to go to stay in the right seat at WestJet and not bidding Swoop to reap the benefits of it are not the problem of the person who chose Swoop.
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by cloak »

Some of the strong “condemning” comments ostensibly coming from WestJet pilots, and there is no way to verify that, but if true, it tends to explain the repeated recalls and emotions! Although there have been times that they were made from union advocates of other airlines. At any rate, all these emotions and recalls are not helpful to reason and diplomacy. It’s also surprising that ALPA has allowed this discourse because first, it opens it to breach of DFR , and secondly more disgruntled members make it less likely to become the union of choice post merger. Sunwing pilots will also be more likely to contest ALPA’s representation.
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by sstaurus »

averageatbest wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:40 am
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:10 am Many people at WJ will never see a left seat, and for those FOs that have waited patiently for ten+ years it would be unconscionable to accept that someone OTS with a few months seniority is able to keep a captain spot at mainline wages.
I'm sure that I'm going to regret saying this, but someone choosing to go to stay in the right seat at WestJet and not bidding Swoop to reap the benefits of it are not the problem of the person who chose Swoop.
Reap the benefits?? Those who stayed at mainline did so to protect mainline conditions, and not the B scale union-buster that is Swoop. Those who supported it should not be rewarded.
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by CaptainHaddock »

C’mon. WestJet starts Swoop when the WJ pilots unionize to circumvent them. ALPA and ACPA both publicly tell pilots not to apply there. After the dust settles Kaplan punts the off the street pilots to the right seat. Every pilot at Swoop is fully aware (or lives in a cave somewhere) that WJ ALPA wants the same contract (WAWCON) for all WJ pilots. So now it is finally coming, a rebid is the only solution.
Anything else just sows the seeds of discontent to reap later, and why?, other than the cool factor of the 4th bar Swoop pilots will have more days off, better schedule, and more money. Maybe pay protection until the FO salary catches up. WJ would then pay every senior FO YOS CA pay then too as they were awarded out of seniority?.
The union is supposed to represent all the members, but that is pretty hard in this situation, and the ultimate solution does represent them all the best. One contract for all the pilots, Swoop is super low pay and tops out at year 3, so what do Swoop guys/gals actually want, shit pay but a command position?. The latest rumor is YEG Swoop base is closing anyway and being replaced with a YXX base (WTF?). The main reason why upgrades at WJ went from 8 to 10 years are the 150 Swoop CA spots, one contract and we get back to 8 years (depending on ‘the growth story’), with YOS that is a pretty good bump.
I’m not sure what other solutions people are imagining, but they can’t crew Swoop with the current conditions and there is no appetite to negotiate a better ‘B’ scale.
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by Blackdog0301 »

cloak wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:45 am It’s also surprising that ALPA has allowed this discourse because first, it opens it to breach of DFR , and secondly more disgruntled members make it less likely to become the union of choice post merger. Sunwing pilots will also be more likely to contest ALPA’s representation.
This is an interesting point. What is stopping the group of Swoop pilots from filing a complaint against ALPA for violating its duty of fair representation? It seems like they would have a case if a rebid were to happen...
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330heavy
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by 330heavy »

Is there no language in your contract about not bumping those out of their seat/base/equipment unless of a downbid? Usually common language in ALPA contracts. So unless a downbid, no one is losing their seat regardless of seniority.
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averageatbest
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by averageatbest »

330heavy wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:13 am Is there no language in your contract about not bumping those out of their seat/base/equipment unless of a downbid? Usually common language in ALPA contracts. So unless a downbid, no one is losing their seat regardless of seniority.
There is nothing in the current contract to allow for a rebid. The only shuffle allowed is during a displacement bid where positions are being reduced.
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Re: How long to get YYC base

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

If the WACON is completely changed and matched to WestJet mainline then a complete rebid is definitely in order!
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