How long to get YYC base

[averageatbest]

If the WACON is completely changed and matched to WestJet mainline then a complete rebid is definitely in order!

The MEC would need a strong mandate or a vote on any MOA/LOU that would allow for a rebid. You cannot ignore the interests of 12% of your pilots without the explicit mandate from the majority.

[sarg]

The latest rumor is YEG Swoop base is closing anyway and being replaced with a YXX base (WTF?). The main reason why upgrades at WJ went from 8 to 10 years are the 150 Swoop CA spots, one contract and we get back to 8 years (depending on ‘the growth story’), with YOS that is a pretty good bump.

Is there no language in your contract about not bumping those out of their seat/base/equipment unless of a downbid? Usually common language in ALPA contracts. So unless a downbid, no one is losing their seat regardless of seniority.

There is nothing in the current contract to allow for a rebid. The only shuffle allowed is during a displacement bid where positions are being reduced.

These 2 are related, first just because the current CBA doesn't have language for a rebid doesn't mean that the incoming CBA won't.

A base closure and opening will trigger a rebid, so the company solves everyone's problems by closing Swoop YEG opening Swoop YXX, if they open a WestJet YEG at the same even better. The rumored timeline for base decisions just happens to coincide with the rumored completion time for CBA negotiations.

It’s also surprising that ALPA has allowed this discourse because first, it opens it to breach of DFR , and secondly more disgruntled members make it less likely to become the union of choice post merger. Sunwing pilots will also be more likely to contest ALPA’s representation.

This is an interesting point. What is stopping the group of Swoop pilots from filing a complaint against ALPA for violating its duty of fair representation? It seems like they would have a case if a rebid were to happen...

DFR case rarely succeed, because all the union has to show is they looked after the greatest number of members. So yes a few members from Swoop may be disadvantaged by a rebid but the union can argue that it benefits the membership as a whole because of the improved WACON (assuming matching WACON). If, ALPA eliminates the "B scale" at Swoop even if it triggers a rebid, it could be argued that that's a positive for Sunwing pilots to embrace ALPA because it means they'll fight to ensure that all groups get the best pay.

[averageatbest]

These 2 are related, first just because the current CBA doesn't have language for a rebid doesn't mean that the incoming CBA won't.

A base closure and opening will trigger a rebid, so the company solves everyone's problems by closing Swoop YEG opening Swoop YXX, if they open a WestJet YEG at the same even better. The rumored timeline for base decisions just happens to coincide with the rumored completion time for CBA negotiations.

The new CBA would need to be ratified by the pilot group which (in my mind) would fulfill my argument that a vote would need to take place.

The base argument is speculation at best and is as likely as an operational merger between Encore and WestJet.

[pacman007]

“ After the dust settles Kaplan punts the off the street pilots to the right seat”

This is from another post. So if an arbitrator punted Captains to the right seat I’m sure, in this case, if wages get improved a rebid is happening. I don’t see the problem for the swoop pilots, your wages will definitely be higher long term? Or the union should pay protect them at the contract they signed when they took the job. And everyone else can make double or triple what they do?

[Spare007]

#1. There will be a rebid. Count on it. There is no jumping seniority no mater how you slice it. If you don’t like it. Well too bad. I stand with senior FO’s and Encore pilots who started long before these hired guns were even conceived.

#2. OTS hires are for lack of a better design, hired mercs. Did you think you are more valued than a 10 year FO who has shown value over 10 years of service? That’s insulting. I see it in your faces when you walk by. No need to talk that out. I don’t love or hate you. You know who and what you are and represent.

#3. These are the same characteristics of those who paid for their training in the 90’s to ‘jump ahead’ of others who advanced on their merit. Working for less than market value hurts the profession. We all know this. If no rebid, NO WAWCON PERIOD. TO BAD.

[Spare007]

#1. There will be a rebid. Count on it. There is no jumping seniority no mater how you slice it. If you don’t like it. Well too bad. I stand with senior FO’s and Encore pilots who started long before these hired guns were even conceived.

#2. OTS hires are for lack of a better design, hired mercs. Did you think you are more valued than a 10 year FO who has shown value over 10 years of service? That’s insulting. I see it in your faces when you walk by. No need to talk that out. I don’t love or hate you. You know who and what you are and represent.

#3. These are the same characteristics of those who paid for their training in the 90’s to ‘jump ahead’ of others who advanced on their merit. Working for less than market value hurts the profession. We all know this. If no rebid, NO WAWCON PERIOD. TO BAD.

[cloak]

… first just because the current CBA doesn't have language for a rebid doesn't mean that the incoming CBA won't.

A base closure and opening will trigger a rebid, so the company solves everyone's problems by closing Swoop YEG opening Swoop YXX, if they open a WestJet YEG at the same even better. The rumored timeline for base decisions just happens to coincide with the rumored completion time for CBA negotiations.

For base closure only those affected can bid into other positions, not a company wide open bid. Plus the company can just create new positions for those affected as it did for 787 pilots.

Big raises across the board, pay parity and YOS at Swoop, and a rebid are simply too many major cost items. The last time there was only one major cost:YOS which was balanced by lower pay at Swoop. The gains will likely be more balanced and no rebid, and for good reasons. Otherwise every time there is a change of guards there will be a major change for the “majority”. Be careful what you wish for. If it doesn’t exist in any other contract, it’s for good reasons, like the one list.

DFR case rarely succeed, because all the union has to show is they looked after the greatest number of members. So yes a few members from Swoop may be disadvantaged by a rebid but the union can argue that it benefits the membership as a whole because of the improved WACON (assuming matching WACON). If, ALPA eliminates the "B scale" at Swoop even if it triggers a rebid, it could be argued that that's a positive for Sunwing pilots to embrace ALPA because it means they'll fight to ensure that all groups get the best pay.

Talks of this rebid first started from a small group too. With chatter about upgrade time being around 2 years at Sunwing and around 10 years at WestJet, and suggestions about a rebid after a merger naturally Sunwing pilots grow concerned. Therefore, there is no point to these divisive discussions, to borrow from Peter to pay Paul, rather the focus should be on holding the company to its word on expansion and creating new positions so more pilots can bid into those positions.

[averageatbest]

For base closure only those affected can bid into other positions, not a company wide open bid. Plus the company can just create new positions for those affected as it did for 787 pilots.

WestJet CBA

7-9.02. In the event of a Position reduction at a Permanent Base that will only trigger a displacement, all
Pilots on the PSL shall be given at least thirty (30) Calendar Days to submit a PSB prior to the date of the
Reduction Bid release.

Encore CBA (Not relevant)

15-6 REDUCTION BIDS
15-6.01. Once a notice is sent to all Pilots that a reduction of Pilots or Base closure is required,
all Pilots on the PSL shall be required to submit a PSB per SECTION 15-4 - PREFERENTIAL
STANDING BID. Each Pilot will be required to fill all applicable slots of the PSB. The PSB for a
reduction/layoff shall run for not less than fifteen (15) days.
15-6.02. Once the PSB is complete, the awarded bids shall be posted to the Pilots within fourteen
(14) days, with the awards being forwarded to the awarded Pilots within seven (7) business day.

[CaptainHaddock]

Well, there is a WestJet YEG base now. Initial bid for 25 crews (filled) ramping up to 100. It was mostly a reshuffle though of positions, but did create about 10 more western CA spots in the end. The Swoop base is still there though somewhat diminished, and no YXX Swoop base so far. Currently any ‘Growth’ story seems to have been thwarted by not getting enough new FO’s and more importantly not keeping the ones we have-which should be (but appears not to be) a priority for management.
Keeping a well trained, experienced and type rated pilot that is already here is much better then trying to train/replace them in a shrinking experience pool. Dragging out the negots is not going to help them either, presenting a ‘new Swoop LOU2’ is like waving a red flag in front of a bull-incredible.

(Most junior YYC CA award is August 2010 now. Most Junior YYC FO award is January 2023)

[Canadaflyer46]

Well, there is a WestJet YEG base now. Initial bid for 25 crews (filled) ramping up to 100. It was mostly a reshuffle though of positions, but did create about 10 more western CA spots in the end. The Swoop base is still there though somewhat diminished, and no YXX Swoop base so far. Currently any ‘Growth’ story seems to have been thwarted by not getting enough new FO’s and more importantly not keeping the ones we have-which should be (but appears not to be) a priority for management.
Keeping a well trained, experienced and type rated pilot that is already here is much better then trying to train/replace them in a shrinking experience pool. Dragging out the negots is not going to help them either, presenting a ‘new Swoop LOU2’ is like waving a red flag in front of a bull-incredible.

(Most junior YYC CA award is August 2010 now. Most Junior YYC FO award is January 2023)

Couldn’t agree more. They need a good CA as much as we do, if they ever hope to crew their growth plans. Yet they are determined to fight the pilot group every step of the way. How many millions in lost bookings is this Summer going to cost them before they give an inch?

[averageatbest]

Couldn’t agree more. They need a good CA as much as we do, if they ever hope to crew their growth plans. Yet they are determined to fight the pilot group every step of the way. How many millions in lost bookings is this Summer going to cost them before they give an inch?

You would be correct in your thinking if the Onex's plan for WestJet was long term success. Unfortunately, it's not. They want as much money when they go public again and that will be achieved through low costs and high revenue.

This is why the threat of a strike gives so much power to the employee groups.