Oopsies...maybe that YKF-YVR red-eye isn't the best idea

[thepoors]

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2022/11/2 ... f-landing/

[averageatbest]

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2022/11/2 ... f-landing/

Why? If you are properly rested, red-eyes are perfectly easy and legal.

[ZBBYLW]

Perfect easy? Not a chance. At best with proper rest (6+hour nap) they are tolerable.

Now consider instead of resting prior to their YVR-YKF they were operating a YKF-YVR leg leaving around dinner time in YKF it shows the new F&D rules don't help out enough.

I'd say the vast majority of pilots doing a dinner time YKF-YVR-YKF would be absolutely shattered on arrival 12 hours later. JMO.

[BTD]

Perfect easy? Not a chance. At best with proper rest (6+hour nap) they are tolerable.

Now consider instead of resting prior to their YVR-YKF they were operating a YKF-YVR leg leaving around dinner time in YKF it shows the new F&D rules don't help out enough.

I'd say the vast majority of pilots doing a dinner time YKF-YVR-YKF would be absolutely shattered on arrival 12 hours later. JMO.

Tolerable is a good way to describe it. I’m a bit of a night owl, so I can tolerate the flight. But the drive home after is brutal. I’ve pulled over for a 10 min nap more than once.

[rudder]

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2022/11/2 ... f-landing/

Why? If you are properly rested, red-eyes are perfectly easy and legal.

A red eye is 1 sector, not a round trip of 4114 nm.

[ogopogo]

Aren’t west coast turns done all the time?
OK, maybe the return leg was a redeye, but so what?....assuming you were well rested because you knew the sked ahead of time.
Why is this even a discussion?

[AirportCoffee]

OK, maybe the return leg was a redeye, but so what?....assuming you were well rested because you knew the sked ahead of time.
Why is this even a discussion?

Exactly this. Airlines and cargo operators have been doing this for decades and continue to do so safely.

[altiplano]

Aren’t west coast turns done all the time?
OK, maybe the return leg was a redeye, but so what?....assuming you were well rested because you knew the sked ahead of time.
Why is this even a discussion?

"but so what"

A transcon turn is a long day and tiring at the best of times.

A single transcon red-eye leg is difficult and fatiguing at the best of times.

Were these guys well rested? Were they acclimatized to WOCL flying? What was their roster?

Scheduling transcon red-eye turns is a recipe for trouble.

[Crewbunk]

OK, maybe the return leg was a redeye, but so what?....assuming you were well rested because you knew the sked ahead of time.
Why is this even a discussion?

Exactly this. Airlines and cargo operators have been doing this for decades and continue to do so safely.

Air Canada does not do red-eye turns. Any west coast to eastern Canada red-eye must begin and end with a layover. (Or start or end of duty).

[ZBBYLW]

OK, maybe the return leg was a redeye, but so what?....assuming you were well rested because you knew the sked ahead of time.
Why is this even a discussion?

Exactly this. Airlines and cargo operators have been doing this for decades and continue to do so safely.

Air Canada does not do red-eye turns. Any west coast to eastern Canada red-eye must begin and end with a layover. (Or start or end of duty).

On occasion AC will have a WB do a red eye turn and depending on the length of the pairing will have 3 or 4 pilots and a bunk.

When Rouge started up they had planned on doing red eye turns to for example LAS and then ACPA and AC sat down and decided it would be unsafe to do so. 10+ years ago also did red eye turns to YYC/YEG/YMM but over time stopped doing them (scheduled anyhow not sure about reserve) while legal they weren't safe enough.

[bcflyer]

Aren’t west coast turns done all the time?
OK, maybe the return leg was a redeye, but so what?....assuming you were well rested because you knew the sked ahead of time.
Why is this even a discussion?

This way of thinking is one of the reasons Canada is so far behind the rest of the world in duty regs. Unless your entire schedule consists of strictly 12hr all nighters, your body will not adjust and you will be fatigued. You may think you are on your game but your reaction times and decision making process are not.

[Crewbunk]

Exactly this. Airlines and cargo operators have been doing this for decades and continue to do so safely.

Air Canada does not do red-eye turns. Any west coast to eastern Canada red-eye must begin and end with a layover. (Or start or end of duty).

On occasion AC will have a WB do a red eye turn and depending on the length of the pairing will have 3 or 4 pilots and a bunk.

When Rouge started up they had planned on doing red eye turns to for example LAS and then ACPA and AC sat down and decided it would be unsafe to do so. 10+ years ago also did red eye turns to YYC/YEG/YMM but over time stopped doing them (scheduled anyhow not sure about reserve) while legal they weren't safe enough.

Yes. Air Canada has a very active Fatigue Management Committee. It is staffed by both sides of the fence, ACPA/Air Canada. When an onerous leg arises, (through multiple fatigue reports), both sides try to find a way to do it safely.

In my last 30+ years at Air Canada, I’ve seen just about every permutation and combination of ways to do it. I’ve seen DH’s in and out, three pilot ops in a NB, (with a J seat blocked), etc. all that culminated with the present scheduling rule …. off duty at either end of the red-eye.

If today, a red-eye turn is flown, it’s an IRROP. The pilots have the option of not flying if they feel fatigue is an issue.

As you know, Rouge, IS Air Canada. Fatigue Management is done by ACPA/AC. As you correctly state, unless an IRROP, a red-eye turn is not flown. And honestly, most IRROPS are just cancelled, or planned delayed at the turn point for crew rest.

Yes, this is an expensive way to operate. Safety is expensive. I feel for this Flair crew. Landing onto a short contaminated runway after 12 hours duty overnight can’t have been easy. Let’s face it, if their last landing had been a CAT III at YYZ, they would have watched Boeing’s finest land for them.

[averageatbest]

This way of thinking is one of the reasons Canada is so far behind the rest of the world in duty regs. Unless your entire schedule consists of strictly 12hr all nighters, your body will not adjust and you will be fatigued. You may think you are on your game but your reaction times and decision making process are not.

Let's implement a 1500 hour minimum requirement for all airline pilots. That'll solve the problem.

[8895]

This way of thinking is one of the reasons Canada is so far behind the rest of the world in duty regs. Unless your entire schedule consists of strictly 12hr all nighters, your body will not adjust and you will be fatigued. You may think you are on your game but your reaction times and decision making process are not.

Let's implement a 1500 hour minimum requirement for all airline pilots. That'll solve the problem.

If that was sarcasm (which I hope it is) that was poorly executed lol

[2112]

This way of thinking is one of the reasons Canada is so far behind the rest of the world in duty regs. Unless your entire schedule consists of strictly 12hr all nighters, your body will not adjust and you will be fatigued. You may think you are on your game but your reaction times and decision making process are not.

Let's implement a 1500 hour minimum requirement for all airline pilots. That'll solve the problem.

If that was sarcasm (which I hope it is) that was poorly executed lol

Would definitely solve the pay problem, much to the ire of our flight-school grads but yeah safety is TC's utmost third priority with regards to fatigue.

[averageatbest]

This way of thinking is one of the reasons Canada is so far behind the rest of the world in duty regs. Unless your entire schedule consists of strictly 12hr all nighters, your body will not adjust and you will be fatigued. You may think you are on your game but your reaction times and decision making process are not.

Let's implement a 1500 hour minimum requirement for all airline pilots. That'll solve the problem.

If that was sarcasm (which I hope it is) that was poorly executed lol

Colgan 3407

[Curiousflyer]

Let's implement a 1500 hour minimum requirement for all airline pilots. That'll solve the problem.

If that was sarcasm (which I hope it is) that was poorly executed lol

Colgan 3407

Coltan resulted in better training, better rest, and better experience. 1500 hours was part of many new regulations that resulted in a safer industry, arguably its worked given the last 10 years of safety in the US. Meanwhile, we have less training, less rest, and less experience.

[averageatbest]

If that was sarcasm (which I hope it is) that was poorly executed lol

Colgan 3407

Coltan resulted in better training, better rest, and better experience. 1500 hours was part of many new regulations that resulted in a safer industry, arguably its worked given the last 10 years of safety in the US. Meanwhile, we have less training, less rest, and less experience.

"Arguably it's worked" is another way to say that you feel like it's worked but don't have proof.

I repeat, the 1500 hour rule would not have prevented the Colgan Air crash as both pilots had a lot more than that amount anyway. The crash had nothing to do with experience.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Colgan 3407

Coltan resulted in better training, better rest, and better experience. 1500 hours was part of many new regulations that resulted in a safer industry, arguably its worked given the last 10 years of safety in the US. Meanwhile, we have less training, less rest, and less experience.

"Arguably it's worked" is another way to say that you feel like it's worked but don't have proof.

I repeat, the 1500 hour rule would not have prevented the Colgan Air crash as both pilots had a lot more than that amount anyway. The crash had nothing to do with experience.

Whether it applied to the Colgan crew or not, we need a 1500h rule here in canada as well. It’s done nothing but good in the USA.

[Selcal]

Does anyone know what the scheduled Flight Duty Period is for this pairing? Also, what is the max FDP?

[flyingcanuck]

Coltan resulted in better training, better rest, and better experience. 1500 hours was part of many new regulations that resulted in a safer industry, arguably its worked given the last 10 years of safety in the US. Meanwhile, we have less training, less rest, and less experience.

"Arguably it's worked" is another way to say that you feel like it's worked but don't have proof.

I repeat, the 1500 hour rule would not have prevented the Colgan Air crash as both pilots had a lot more than that amount anyway. The crash had nothing to do with experience.

Whether it applied to the Colgan crew or not, we need a 1500h rule here in canada as well. It’s done nothing but good in the USA.

That's why it'll never happen