Flair off runway excursion YKF

[pelmet]

C-FFLC, a Flair Airlines Ltd. Boeing 737-800 was conducting flight FLE501 from Vancouver
International Airport (CYVR), BC, to the Region of Waterloo International Airport (CYKF), ON, with
6 crew and 134 passengers on board. Following touchdown on runway 26 the flight crew
encountered some directional control issues, and the aircraft did not decelerate as expected. The
aircraft overran the runway, coming to rest approximately 500 feet from the end of runway. There
were no injuries, no observed damage to the landing gear, and some minor FOD damage
observed on the LH engine. The crew and passengers stayed on the aircraft until airstairs were
made available.

[ogopogo]

Anyone local know if the plane has been flown out?

[fish4life]

Anyone local know if the plane has been flown out?

I’d imagine fod in one engine would require it to be pulled off so it might be a bit

[FICU]

Not too surprising, most overruns are the result of the long/fast landing.

And or a speedbrake that wasn't armed or deployed.

[drone_driver24]

C-FFLC, a Flair Airlines Ltd. Boeing 737-800 was conducting flight FLE501 from Vancouver
International Airport (CYVR), BC, to the Region of Waterloo International Airport (CYKF), ON, with
6 crew and 134 passengers on board. Following touchdown on runway 26 the flight crew
encountered some directional control issues, and the aircraft did not decelerate as expected. The
aircraft overran the runway, coming to rest approximately 500 feet from the end of runway. There
were no injuries, no observed damage to the landing gear, and some minor FOD damage
observed on the LH engine. The crew and passengers stayed on the aircraft until airstairs were
made available.

Thrust reverser issue?

[homesick]

Not too surprising, most overruns are the result of the long/fast landing.

And or a speedbrake that wasn't armed or deployed.

Even if not armed, the speedbrakes will deploy automatically once the wheels spin up and levers positioned for reverse thrust.

If you're going to speculate do it grounded on some facts rather than posting for the sake of posting.

[BTD]

Not too surprising, most overruns are the result of the long/fast landing.

And or a speedbrake that wasn't armed or deployed.

Even if not armed, the speedbrakes will deploy automatically once the wheels spin up and levers positioned for reverse thrust.

If you're going to speculate do it grounded on some facts rather than posting for the sake of posting.

Not so fast there.. I used to be a training captain on the max and was hyper aware of the number of overruns 737s tend to have. And highlighted it to transiting pilots. Often but not always the speed brake was a contributing factor. And the reverse linked system wasn’t enough to prevent the incident.

It is often the case with long and/or fast landings the pilots are distracted and delayed in their deployment of reverse thrust negating that system. Just look at Air France in YYZ. They landed halfway down the runway and it was still 12+ seconds before they got the reversers out. They were too distracted with other things. Southwest in midway also couldn’t get the reverse to unlock for a while because there wasn’t proper wheel spin up.


I have a ready made folder in adobe of speed brake related overruns (not all 737) because they aren’t that uncommon. Here are a few with some excerpts below.

1839.pdf

(600.16 KiB) Downloaded 66 times

1951.pdf

(130.55 KiB) Downloaded 58 times

1942.pdf

(1004.29 KiB) Downloaded 54 times

A clearly distinguishable and intelligible alert that activates when the speedbrakes do not automatically deploy after landing would have provided the pilots with a salient warning that the speedbrakes did not function as expected and would likely have brought the captain‘s attention back to the speedbrakes and resulted in manual speedbrake deployment.

Four seconds later the thrust reversers were deployed and reverse thrust was selected with 80% N1 (engine RPM). At the same time a maximum brake pressure of 3.000 psi7 was recorded. The automatic speed brake handle was only partially extended and reached 40 degrees (in-flight detent).

The airplane touched down within 500 feet of the runway threshold. After touchdown, the captain perceived a lack of braking effectiveness and quickly applied full manual brakes. Speedbrakes did not deploy upon touchdown, nor were thrust reversers deployed. About 16 seconds after touchdown, thrust reversers were manually deployed, which also resulted in speedbrake deployment per system design, when the airplane had about 1,500 feet of runway remaining. As the airplane neared the end of the pavement, the captain attempted to turn onto the connecting taxiway but was unable. The airplane struck a taxiway light and rolled about 200 feet into the grass.

Your risk for overrun in a large jet goes way up when you break multiple excursion laws of stupid.
-Night
-IMC
-wet or contaminated
-tailwind (even slight)

Read the reports and most of the time 3 of the above are involved.

[FICU]

And or a speedbrake that wasn't armed or deployed.

Even if not armed, the speedbrakes will deploy automatically once the wheels spin up and levers positioned for reverse thrust.

If you're going to speculate do it grounded on some facts rather than posting for the sake of posting.

You have to first activate reverse thrust in a timely manner for that system to be effective.

[fish4life]

Is it not habit to just pull the reversers on touchdown all the time? I don’t think I even think about it anymore

[Rooster69]

Is it not habit to just pull the reversers on touchdown all the time? I don’t think I even think about it anymore

You would think that is the habit. But….. many, many, many pilots brief that they will use “idle reverse” on landing for a high percentage of their flight. Many, many of these pilots will either just lift reversers out of gate, or lazily just bring thrust levers to idle. A very poor technique. I have seen the same pilots struggle to lift the thrust levers into reverse, and into max reverse, when reverse thrust is needed. I suppose it is a muscle memory thing. I noticed this technique has become more prevalent over the years as companies try to save fuel by using only idle reverse when conditions warrant. I prefer lifting reverse out of gate and pulling back on trust levers to full reverse, then thrust, before the engines spool up, advance thrust levers to idle reverse.

[BTD]

Is it not habit to just pull the reversers on touchdown all the time? I don’t think I even think about it anymore

Yes it is under normal circumstances.

However, when you read the accident reports, often there is some other mentally demanding issue going on that distracts. Such as hydroplaning and drifting for example. In that example keeping the airplane straight becomes the priority and tunnel vision sets in and it is overlooked. And usually in those cases the PM is overwhelmed and misses the calls about speedbrakes and reverse.

In addition, the reversers sometimes get stuck in the locked out position if the airplane lands and doesn’t register weight on wheels right away. This is made much worse if the speed brakes don’t deploy, which funny enough is the back up to deploying the speedbrakes.

[FICU]

Is it not habit to just pull the reversers on touchdown all the time? I don’t think I even think about it anymore

I would hope so.

[homesick]

Is it not habit to just pull the reversers on touchdown all the time? I don’t think I even think about it anymore

Yes it is under normal circumstances.

However, when you read the accident reports, often there is some other mentally demanding issue going on that distracts. Such as hydroplaning and drifting for example. In that example keeping the airplane straight becomes the priority and tunnel vision sets in and it is overlooked. And usually in those cases the PM is overwhelmed and misses the calls about speedbrakes and reverse.

In addition, the reversers sometimes get stuck in the locked out position if the airplane lands and doesn’t register weight on wheels right away. This is made much worse if the speed brakes don’t deploy, which funny enough is the back up to deploying the speedbrakes.

Thrust Reversers can be deployed at less than 10' RA. Weight on wheels is not a factor.

[BTD]

Is it not habit to just pull the reversers on touchdown all the time? I don’t think I even think about it anymore

Yes it is under normal circumstances.

However, when you read the accident reports, often there is some other mentally demanding issue going on that distracts. Such as hydroplaning and drifting for example. In that example keeping the airplane straight becomes the priority and tunnel vision sets in and it is overlooked. And usually in those cases the PM is overwhelmed and misses the calls about speedbrakes and reverse.

In addition, the reversers sometimes get stuck in the locked out position if the airplane lands and doesn’t register weight on wheels right away. This is made much worse if the speed brakes don’t deploy, which funny enough is the back up to deploying the speedbrakes.

Thrust Reversers can be deployed at less than 10' RA. Weight on wheels is not a factor.

Had to go into the AOM since I don’t fly the 737 anymore. But here is the quote:

“ The thrust reverser can be deployed when either radio altimeter senses less than 10 feet altitude
combined with an air/ground safety sensor in the ground mode”

You’ve never greased one on and had the speedbrakes take a second or 2 to deploy and in the mean time the reverse levers are locked out until the aircraft settles firmly?

[Rooster69]

“ The thrust reverser can be deployed when either radio altimeter senses less than 10 feet altitude
combined with an air/ground safety sensor in the ground mode”

Now THAT makes sense.


Now we sit back and wait for the investigation. Is Flair still doing the red eye turns?

[homesick]

You can paraphrase all you want, the exact wording is 'or' with respects A/G sensors and RA for TR deployment as per the FCOM.

But we veer entirely off topic at this point.

Best to await a preliminary report before we speculate further.

[Eric Janson]

There is an increasing drive to save fuel by landing with a lower flap setting and to use idle reverse - this is usually in the SOPs.

I guess the increased wear on landing gear, tires and brakes is offset - but I've never seen a detailed analysis.

Some airports also want idle reverse except for safety reasons.

What I have never seen published are conditions under which you shouldn't be doing this. I have my own:-

- Not if the runway is wet or contaminated.
- Not with a tailwind.
- Not under Lovis conditions.
- Not if the landing distance required and the runway length are close together.

I won't hesitate to use max reverse if I think it's needed. There's nothing in our SOP about reduced flap landings - I don't do them.

There is another issue that is not taken into account - rubber deposits in the touchdown zone at the far end. It's possible to have minimal braking in the last 1000 - 1500' especially at airports where it doesn't rain much and the runway is wet. Under these conditions I plan to be at taxi speed by this point.

I guess the final report will show if any of the above is relevant.

In the meantime I'm curious what the policy is at other Airlines?

Straight from my AOM, I’m surprised to hear there is no guidance in any AOM of an aircraft with reverse thrust.

Idle reverse shall be used for normal operations and must be deployed on every landing when available. The use of reverse thrust above idle may be used based on environmental and operational considerations which include:
• Slippery or contaminated runways
• Landing with a tailwind
• Anticipated high BTMS temperatures after landing
• During any normal/Abnormal/Emergency landing condition where maximum stopping capability is required The intent of using idle reverse for normal operations is primarily to minimize incidents of foreign object damage and reduce fuel consumption. It is not to restrict the use of maximum reverse thrust if required for the safe operation of the aircraft.

Thanks for the information.

I don't like the use of the word 'may' - this creates a choice for the Pilot. Under the conditions listed maximum reverse should be used - that it how this should be worded.

Under the conditions listed I'd be using max reverse.

This is going to get someone into trouble imho.