Flair off runway excursion YKF

[rookiepilot]

I flew 2, 3 hour legs from Victoria to Regina as a GA pilot to go to a course, i was fatigued. I just finished a long stressful work week at my regular job on the night shift doing 13 hours shifts, i left at 6am on the weekend (complete opposite sleep schedule as I'm used to) and didn't get any sleep the night before as I was stressing about the weather and no other mode of transportation would have got me there in time other than flying my plane. Funny how "get there itis" is only ever thrown at GA. ANY pilot can be stressed or fatigued for any number of personnel or professional reasons outside of the cockpit and that can be on their mind when they fly. Yes i have flown commercially for several years, so i know what its like

When i was doing Hope Air, did lots of ZBA - YYU - YXU or YTZ - ZBA. Granted not every day, but in a 182, do the math, more than a few hours.

Granted, night is harder. I’ve done some 3 hour legs on a dark overcast night a few times. No AP. Yeah, that tired me.

As for the other poster, idiot back at you. Thousands of truckers run through the night, my brother is one of them, pulling double trailers on the nutty 401. 10-12 straight hours.

Sound easier?

The difference is that the trucker can pull on the side of the road.

No, he can’t in many, many places, nor can he even take any exit in a double trailer.

Have you driven the 401 on a dark, rainy night? Or snow? Know what wind can do to 2 empty trailers? Ain’t fun, he tells me. Never mind the idiots on the roads.

I’d take flying myself over his job.

[Just another canuck]

When i was doing Hope Air, did lots of ZBA - YYU - YXU or YTZ - ZBA. Granted not every day, but in a 182, do the math, more than a few hours.

Granted, night is harder. I’ve done some 3 hour legs on a dark overcast night a few times. No AP. Yeah, that tired me.

As for the other poster, idiot back at you. Thousands of truckers run through the night, my brother is one of them, pulling double trailers on the nutty 401. 10-12 straight hours.

Sound easier?

The difference is that the trucker can pull on the side of the road.

No, he can’t in many, many places, nor can he even take any exit in a double trailer.

Have you driven the 401 on a dark, rainy night? Or snow? Know what wind can do to 2 empty trailers? Ain’t fun, he tells me. Never mind the idiots on the roads.

I’d take flying myself over his job.

Once again, you’re adequately demonstrating you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Thanks for playing though.

[rookiepilot]

The difference is that the trucker can pull on the side of the road.

No, he can’t in many, many places, nor can he even take any exit in a double trailer.

Have you driven the 401 on a dark, rainy night? Or snow? Know what wind can do to 2 empty trailers? Ain’t fun, he tells me. Never mind the idiots on the roads.

I’d take flying myself over his job.

Once again, you’re adequately demonstrating you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Thanks for playing though.

Really? Explain.
I’m genuinely interested in which part I got so wrong.

[ZBBYLW]

Fatigue is one part of it but none of us know if the crew were fatigued. NTSB will figure that out and let us know.

I just find it particular that the 737NGs seem to have a hard time staying on the runways. I don't know what the actual numbers are but it seems to frequently be a NG off the end compared to a 320, WB or other.

I hear most landings are done with F30 because F40 tend to be awkward either for flap overspeed or hard landings.. I also hear F30 approach speeds are pretty fast.

Just curious if any NG drivers want to comment about the general performance of the plane. From the sidelines it seems when ever the runways get wet the plane is a handful but maybe there is something else at play.

I'm not putting any blame towards the crew. For all we know their braking computer failed but curious about the plane.

[Just another canuck]

No, he can’t in many, many places, nor can he even take any exit in a double trailer.

Have you driven the 401 on a dark, rainy night? Or snow? Know what wind can do to 2 empty trailers? Ain’t fun, he tells me. Never mind the idiots on the roads.

I’d take flying myself over his job.

Once again, you’re adequately demonstrating you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Thanks for playing though.

Really? Explain.
I’m genuinely interested in which part I got so wrong.

First of all, I am not saying I know what happened here or if fatigue had anything to do with it. I’m also not saying that a truck driver has an easy time staying awake or that his or her own job doesn’t present it’s own challenges.

I often find it frustrating, or maybe just annoying, that you comment on these topics like some kind of an expert, with no experience or knowledge with the exception of flying around a single piston at some point.

I’ve done red eye flights from Toronto to the West coast and back. That is until they were taken out of our schedules due to high fatigue reports. An airline pilot’s schedule can be very difficult with regards to sleep management. We can often suffer from acute fatigue, but also chronic fatigue due to alternating days and nights and time zone changes. Some are better at managing than others. Some have a home life that make it more or less difficult. Each case is different. There are many other things on this flight that you may be unaware of such as turbulence enroute, weather deviations or MEL’s which can cause added stress and may have not allowed a controlled rest back east bound. The cabin altitude and cabin air quality can also have negative physiological effects. There are a multitude of added stressors which can occur such as delays on the ground or in flight occurrences/failures. Flair has a lot of new employees. It’s possible it was even a training flight or one or both of the pilots could be relatively new.

To sit behind your keyboard and say you think a truck driver has a more difficult time because your brother drives one is silly. Sounds like you’ve done neither. For the record, if a truck driver is feeling tired, he or she can pull over. Perhaps not that instant, but there will be an opportunity. Truck drivers, like shift workers, also typically drive either at day or night so are acclimated to their time of work. They also do not cross multiple time zones in a single day.

What does an airline pilot do when they can not keep their eyes open any longer? I personally know someone who feel dead asleep on approach below 10,000. Fatigue is and has been a major issue in aviation for as long as it’s been around. I don’t think you understand how much of a problem it is. I do. And you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Just another canuck]

Fatigue is one part of it but none of us know if the crew were fatigued. NTSB will figure that out and let us know.

I just find it particular that the 737NGs seem to have a hard time staying on the runways. I don't know what the actual numbers are but it seems to frequently be a NG off the end compared to a 320, WB or other.

I hear most landings are done with F30 because F40 tend to be awkward either for flap overspeed or hard landings.. I also hear F30 approach speeds are pretty fast.

Just curious if any NG drivers want to comment about the general performance of the plane. From the sidelines it seems when ever the runways get wet the plane is a handful but maybe there is something else at play.

I'm not putting any blame towards the crew. For all we know their braking computer failed but curious about the plane.

An Airbus on auto brake medium will have your tie sticking straight out towards the windscreen. The Boeing does not do nearly as good a job. The Boeing is fine with flap 40, but 30 is often used in gusty conditions cause it handles a little better and you are less likely to over speed. The Boeing lands way faster than a 320. Probably more than 20 knots on average if flap 30 is used.

[rookiepilot]

Really? Explain.
I’m genuinely interested in which part I got so wrong.

I often find it frustrating, or maybe just annoying, that you comment on these topics like some kind of an expert, with no experience or knowledge with the exception of flying around a single piston at some point.

To sit behind your keyboard and say you think a truck driver has a more difficult time because your brother drives one is silly. Sounds like you’ve done neither. For the record, if a truck driver is feeling tired, he or she can pull over. Perhaps not that instant, but there will be an opportunity. Truck drivers, like shift workers, also typically drive either at day or night so are acclimated to their time of work. They also do not cross multiple time zones in a single day.

[/quote]

I find it frustrating and annoying that comments on these threads delve into airline pilots commenting like experts and then denigrating the professional lives of nurses, ER doctors or truck drivers to make their point. Doesn’t win any points.

My brother is in his late 50’s. 2 million accident free miles. Unlike airline pilots, he doesn’t have a rich pension. His body is wrecked, wants to get out, can’t yet. Have 2 friends, same. Both drive at night. I don’t think his employer would appreciate him pulling over every time he felt tired. Many parts of the 401 don’t have adequate shoulders to pull over safely. Many exits can’t handle double trailers, can’t make the turn.

My brother switches days, nights , days, nights, every few days. So do hospital nurses, I know several of them, too. It’s been brutal for them, Covid. Always understaffed.

Please Stop spewing proof, including your paragraph above, that proves you don’t have a clue what you are talking about with regards to other industries. Thank you.

[rookiepilot]

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us

Why are you bashing another industry?

[daedalusx]

Yeah the 738 is a POS on landing performance.
F30 approach speed is artificially high to minimize the risk of tail strike. F40 has more room to manoeuvre but you’re close to the flap Max speed which is probably 162.

So say your final ref speed is 155 due to AC weight and strong gusts, you only have a 7 kts buffer and that’s not a whole lot especially with a laggy AT and gusty winds. So some pilots don’t like using that setting in these conditions because if it does over speed in short final, the flaps will retract on its own and it’ll be a go around.

That being said, 7000’ isn’t that bad. Sunwing used to do (maybe they still do) Mont-Joli in winter and that’s 6000’
Someone could run the numbers for YKF that morning at max landing weight and I’m sure even at F30 with +15 kts with AB Max that should be doable inside of 7000’ probably even with AB3

[RoAF-Mig21]

...Fatigue is one part of it but none of us know if the crew were fatigued. NTSB will figure that out and let us know...

I don't see why the NTSB would get involved with this, unless it's because it was an American made aircraft. Canada has the TSB "Transportation Safety Board of Canada".

[ZBBYLW]

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us

Why are you bashing another industry?

This thread indeed has turned a little funny. I think Nurses, ER Docs, emergency service workers (Fire, Cops and Medics), truck drivers etc can all have extremely fatiguing schedules.

The reason why the aviation industry is highly regulated is the potential risk to the 50-450 passengers sitting behind you. The tolerance of risk should be a bit lower.

I think the pissing back and forth of these guys have it worse, or this profession is harder and does nothing but embarrass yourself. All those mentioned jobs can be extremely fatiguing. It's also important we try and mitigate the fatigue to the extent possible, especially in a high risk environment such as flying airplanes.

We have gotten pretty good about safely getting from point A to B in a dangerous environment. Training, SOPs and modern aircraft technology has helped to make it safer. Fatigue in my opinion is one of the higher risk items left. To downplay it by saying "this group also is fatigued" really downplays to me what is an important aspect to safety.

[Tolip]

As a GA pilot you fly once in a while, maybe for a few hours at a time. Unless you have worked as a professional pilot, you have no idea of the stress and exhaustion. These things include:
- abusive chief pilots
- 14 hour duty days, recently reduced.
- low pay, and forced to pick up extra flying to make ends meet, resulting in fatigue.
- many nights away from home.

Overall, I enjoy the job but there are many stressors that come with it. So again, unless you actually have worked as a professional pilot, it’s pretty difficult for you to truly understand.

I flew 2, 3 hour legs from Victoria to Regina as a GA pilot to go to a course, i was fatigued. I just finished a long stressful work week at my regular job on the night shift doing 13 hours shifts, i left at 6am on the weekend (complete opposite sleep schedule as I'm used to) and didn't get any sleep the night before as I was stressing about the weather and no other mode of transportation would have got me there in time other than flying my plane. Funny how "get there itis" is only ever thrown at GA. ANY pilot can be stressed or fatigued for any number of personnel or professional reasons outside of the cockpit and that can be on their mind when they fly. Yes i have flown commercially for several years, so i know what its like

2 3 hour legs, that's like a six hour day. In a simple aircraft. How can you compare that to a 5 day pairing of 4 legs, each day 11 to 13 hours with 10 to 12 hours rest working strange inconsistent hours on a different time zone. Fatigue isnt a one day thing, its cumulative. I'm not saying a GA pilot cant be fatigued, but to repeat what the guy above said your reasons for being in the seat are completely different. You have every option to just sleep in, stop on the ground and have a nap, leave late. Full control over what kind of rest you get b4 you arrive at your aircraft.. plus you would not be operating in any form of bad weather (presumably). So if a GA pilot CHOOSES to fly when he is extremely fatigued (with zero pressure ot expectation for them to do it) then yes, you will not recieve the same sympathy as an airline pilot. I dont really understand how you can even refute that? It's not an "airline" vs GA pilot debate. Airlines are known to operate in one of the most fatiguing and safety sensitive jobs that exist, why do you think there is SUCH an oversight and safety and reporting system in place to monitor this? Even doctors who work long shifts can have controlled rest anytime and yes a truck driver (whether ot not they are on the 401) CAN just take an exit off and nap. Absolutely they can.

[daedalusx]

Nonono, according to the dude who's never flown an airline schedule, nor worked a night shift at the hospital, these things are totally the same.

[Just another canuck]

Really? Explain.
I’m genuinely interested in which part I got so wrong.

I often find it frustrating, or maybe just annoying, that you comment on these topics like some kind of an expert, with no experience or knowledge with the exception of flying around a single piston at some point.

To sit behind your keyboard and say you think a truck driver has a more difficult time because your brother drives one is silly. Sounds like you’ve done neither. For the record, if a truck driver is feeling tired, he or she can pull over. Perhaps not that instant, but there will be an opportunity. Truck drivers, like shift workers, also typically drive either at day or night so are acclimated to their time of work. They also do not cross multiple time zones in a single day.

I find it frustrating and annoying that comments on these threads delve into airline pilots commenting like experts and then denigrating the professional lives of nurses, ER doctors or truck drivers to make their point. Doesn’t win any points.

My brother is in his late 50’s. 2 million accident free miles. Unlike airline pilots, he doesn’t have a rich pension. His body is wrecked, wants to get out, can’t yet. Have 2 friends, same. Both drive at night. I don’t think his employer would appreciate him pulling over every time he felt tired. Many parts of the 401 don’t have adequate shoulders to pull over safely. Many exits can’t handle double trailers, can’t make the turn.

My brother switches days, nights , days, nights, every few days. So do hospital nurses, I know several of them, too. It’s been brutal for them, Covid. Always understaffed.

Please Stop spewing proof, including your paragraph above, that proves you don’t have a clue what you are talking about with regards to other industries. Thank you.
[/quote]

I never said a damn thing about other industries. Not in any negative way. I simply explained to you why you were wrong, at your request I might add. And YOU are the one who initially brought other industries into the argument in the previous page. But this is what you do… put words in the mouths of other posters who call you out on your BS.

I saw your post you deleted btw. It just so happens us airline pilots also happen to have extensive experience in general aviation as well. Our arguments can start with more than “When I was at Hope Air…”. Get a life pal.

[Just another canuck]

In all likelihood, the crew landed a little long. Perhaps using flap 30 with a gust factor added to the Vref in addition to a slippery runway of only 7000’, they exited the end. That’s my opinion, but will leave it to the experts and their investigation for final report.

[rookiepilot]

Really? Explain.
I’m genuinely interested in which part I got so wrong.

I often find it frustrating, or maybe just annoying, that you comment on these topics like some kind of an expert, with no experience or knowledge with the exception of flying around a single piston at some point.

To sit behind your keyboard and say you think a truck driver has a more difficult time because your brother drives one is silly. Sounds like you’ve done neither. For the record, if a truck driver is feeling tired, he or she can pull over. Perhaps not that instant, but there will be an opportunity. Truck drivers, like shift workers, also typically drive either at day or night so are acclimated to their time of work. They also do not cross multiple time zones in a single day.

I find it frustrating and annoying that comments on these threads delve into airline pilots commenting like experts and then denigrating the professional lives of nurses, ER doctors or truck drivers to make their point. Doesn’t win any points.

My brother is in his late 50’s. 2 million accident free miles. Unlike airline pilots, he doesn’t have a rich pension. His body is wrecked, wants to get out, can’t yet. Have 2 friends, same. Both drive at night. I don’t think his employer would appreciate him pulling over every time he felt tired. Many parts of the 401 don’t have adequate shoulders to pull over safely. Many exits can’t handle double trailers, can’t make the turn.

My brother switches days, nights , days, nights, every few days. So do hospital nurses, I know several of them, too. It’s been brutal for them, Covid. Always understaffed.

Please Stop spewing proof, including your paragraph above, that proves you don’t have a clue what you are talking about with regards to other industries. Thank you.

I never said a damn thing about other industries. Not in any negative way. I simply explained to you why you were wrong, at your request I might add. And YOU are the one who initially brought other industries into the argument in the previous page. But this is what you do… put words in the mouths of other posters who call you out on your BS.

I saw your post you deleted btw. It just so happens us airline pilots also happen to have extensive experience in general aviation as well. Our arguments can start with more than “When I was at Hope Air…”. Get a life pal.
[/quote]

You sure did. You and others. I’ll group the Prima Donna’s together. Licenses bought from the bank of Mom and Dad.

You’ve demeaned other hard working people in demanding positions as effectively unaffected by fatigue because they can rest anytime they want. Its BS, own it pal. The better than thou attitude shines through loud and clear.

Pilots shitting on nurses and truck drivers who will never end up making a fraction of what you will make, isn’t a good look. Pro tip!

And — I also wasn’t the one who even raised the idea of workers in other industries. Check that again. Page 3. Get it right if you want to quote me. But I will defend them.

Tell us all you’re an entitled so special Prima Donna without saying so.

[daedalusx]

I find it frustrating and annoying that comments on these threads delve into airline pilots commenting like experts and then denigrating the professional lives of nurses, ER doctors or truck drivers to make their point. Doesn’t win any points.

My brother is in his late 50’s. 2 million accident free miles. Unlike airline pilots, he doesn’t have a rich pension. His body is wrecked, wants to get out, can’t yet. Have 2 friends, same. Both drive at night. I don’t think his employer would appreciate him pulling over every time he felt tired. Many parts of the 401 don’t have adequate shoulders to pull over safely. Many exits can’t handle double trailers, can’t make the turn.

My brother switches days, nights , days, nights, every few days. So do hospital nurses, I know several of them, too. It’s been brutal for them, Covid. Always understaffed.

Please Stop spewing proof, including your paragraph above, that proves you don’t have a clue what you are talking about with regards to other industries. Thank you.

I never said a damn thing about other industries. Not in any negative way. I simply explained to you why you were wrong, at your request I might add. And YOU are the one who initially brought other industries into the argument in the previous page. But this is what you do… put words in the mouths of other posters who call you out on your BS.

I saw your post you deleted btw. It just so happens us airline pilots also happen to have extensive experience in general aviation as well. Our arguments can start with more than “When I was at Hope Air…”. Get a life pal.

You sure did. You and others. I’ll group the Prima Donna’s together. Licenses bought from the bank of Mom and Dad.

You’ve demeaned other hard working people in demanding positions as effectively unaffected by fatigue because they can rest anytime they want. Its BS, own it pal. The better than thou attitude shines through loud and clear.

Pilots shitting on nurses and truck drivers who will never end up making a fraction of what you will make, isn’t a good look. Pro tip!

And — I also wasn’t the one who even raised the idea of workers in other industries. Check that again. Page 3. Get it right if you want to quote me. But I will defend them.

Tell us all you’re an entitled so special Prima Donna without saying so.

Lulz. The only one who's shitting on any profession is you buddy. Absolutely no-one here is saying that X job is any more or less harder than flying an airliner. The issue that everyone here is trying to help you understand is that you can't simply can't compare your trucker or nurse scenario with pilot fatigue which btw, is legitimately one of the biggest threat to the safety of air travel, not that you'd ever know anything about this with all of your experience as an armchair quarterback.

Speaking of, a lot of us worked night shift load master, dispatch, ramp, fueler, etc in order to get our wings and working 4x 6PM to 6AM shifts in-a- row, up north is a piece of cake compared to the chronic and acute fatigue that comes with crossing multiple time zone, circadian rhythm, irregular sleep schedules with reserve calls and multi-leg red eyes. To be so blunt, you really have no clue what you're talking about and it's embarrassing.

[rookiepilot]

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us

Here is the first post, not by me, about another industry.

The next post is you, crapping all over them. Spin it all you want.

It’s not a good look, pal. And the timing, now, when there is a massive shortage of nurses willing to work, so many have gotten sick or quit — had enough— is “retarded”.

Sorry. I had to speak up at that.

And trucking? Trucking companies make any airline look good. Most are completely abusive slimeballs.

And it’s all totally unnecessary to make your point on fatigue.

I make lots of dumb posts and deleted a couple at the beginning of this thread. Don’t think going after nurses is a good look, though.

[photofly]

Even doctors who work long shifts can have controlled rest anytime

Doctors have a controlled rest programme? Does the nurse come and wake them up after 40 mins napping in the treatment room?

I thought that was just pilots.

[daedalusx]

That would be a normal shift for a doctor or nurse in the hospital. They do 12+ hours on the back side of the clock all the time, and it's absolutely not unusual to have a shift extended when the ER is busy.

Imagine comparing a nurse working a night shift with an approach to mins at 150 kts in gusty winds, into a wet narrow short runway.
My wife is a nurse, I promise you this comparison is utterly retarded.
And yes nurses and doctors make mistakes all the time, it's one of the leading cause of death.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/me ... _in_the_us

Here is the first post, not by me, about another industry.

The next post is you, crapping all over them. Spin it all you want.

It’s not a good look, pal. And the timing, now, when there is a massive shortage of nurses willing to work, so many have gotten sick or quit — had enough— is “retarded”.

Sorry. I had to speak up at that.

And trucking? Trucking companies make any airline look good. Most are completely abusive slimeballs.

And it’s all totally unnecessary to make your point on fatigue.

Dude. Pointing out that human factors/errors being responsible for one of the leading cause of death is not shitting on anyone's career, how retarded are you? Don't you think that fatigue and stress doesn't play a role in these medical human errors ?
Yes, nurses and doctors make mistakes. It's well acknowledged in the industry as I pointed out in my link above.
Yes, they have a shitty schedule and work high stress.
Yes these factors aggravate the risk of human errors.
These are facts, just like human factors/pilot errors being the leading cause of airplane crash. Facts don't care about your feeling buddy. What's important is recognizing and mitigating the risk and improving the working conditions and schedule to reduce the risk as much as possible.

You came in this thread with your whataboutism and totally derailed a legitimate discussion on this specific pairing which was flagged by professionals with infinitely more knowledge and experienced than you, as a fatigue risk. Such pairing would have not existed under current Air Canada's or Westjet schedule.