703 Captain, but fair enough. Pay rates are public knowledge. Working conditions are basically all thats talked about here. I have former coworkers and friends at all of the above giving me first hand info on morale and conditions. Encore is the only one where someone I knew personally went sideways to a different regional after working there. Pretty much all the airlines are losing some to AC etc, but which ones are losing people fastest and which ones are having sideways moves is telling.
Announced routes
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Re: Announced routes
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Re: Announced routes
Can porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Re: Announced routes
The delay in TC certification of the jets probably didn’t help, but as I understand it they saved a lot being shut down. So who knows? They aren’t paying more right now because when they came up with the payscales they claimed it was competitive based on the competition. If we’re all being honest then yes. The Q rates were pretty much the same as the others and the jet is close to others for the first few years.
Re: Announced routes
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)newlygrounded wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pmCan porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows
If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
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Re: Announced routes
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70sNTPilot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows
If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.
I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
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Re: Announced routes
From what I understand they got a pretty good deal on the E2s. Also, sold them to a few leasing companies for a small profit then leased them back right away. Which I believe is termed appropriately a leasebacknewlygrounded wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pmCan porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Again, I have zero idea as to what exactly was written in that deal, but I do believe that they are making sound business decisions and cost per mile for the E2 is wayyyyy better than mostly everything other than the 220.
Last edited by CaptDukeNukem on Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Announced routes
I’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.braaap Braap wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pmThey typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70sNTPilot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows
If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.
I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
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Re: Announced routes
Don't get me wrong, I'd sign a card today. I think 2% is well worth it to have:CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:40 pmI’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.braaap Braap wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pmThey typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70sNTPilot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pm
Well actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows
If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.
I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
1) Access to a legal department not paid for by the RD family (should I need it - knock on wood)
2) Be pulling in the same direction as the majority of the industry
3) Have some nicer merger protections in place if it ever came to that.
IMO we've outgrown the FOAG. The committee is lacking teeth. Stuff is getting changed on a whim here and there with no real transparency and I think the anemic engagement from the pilot group is a sign of a "whatever" attitude.
I just don't think the Porter group should be lambasted or eyerolled at because they haven't decided to go that direction (yet).
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Re: Announced routes
There were plenty of costs that were hard to swallow while making no income, afaik even most of the mechanics were laid off.NTPilot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:15 pmWell actually with shutting down the whole operation and not paying a penny to pilots and others not only they saved money but they almost bought the jests for cheap and all cash and they paid all their debts, (porter management quote)newlygrounded wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:27 pmCan porter afford to pay more? They took on a lot of debt with 0 flights running for years and now they have 50 planes on order.
Can they pay more, absolutely yes,
Will they? God knows
If the pilots had union, they would have so much better benefits and life style
Just look at the porter ramp guys, only one with union, no one can tell them anything
They got a large loan from the government, if they were doing well financially I wouldn't see them doing that. They also probably had some cash laying around from selling the terminal a few years ago but that's obviously a 1 time benefit.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.6087309
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Re: Announced routes
Having a lawyer other than one appointed by the company is always good lol.braaap Braap wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:34 pmDon't get me wrong, I'd sign a card today. I think 2% is well worth it to have:CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:40 pmI’m with you here. Although I don’t necessarily think a union would help at this moment in time. I’ve spent a lot of years working for unionized companies and seeing 2% of my salary disappear for very little forward gain.braaap Braap wrote: ↑Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:56 pm
They typically run a benchmarking exercise every year where they look at the comparable regionals (last year was Jazz, Encore, and Pal). The pilot representatives apparently fought to avoid a B scale by bringing the FO salaries DOWN because the other 3's MMGs are in the 70s
Hard to say "well look at Encore" when that was just ratified. If things don't change at the next benchmarking exercise I could see a lot of issues of retention and recruitment and/or seeking better representation than the funion that is the FOAG.
I think a Canadian industry united in ALPA is the best case scenario but their past performance leaves something to be desired (I understand industry/market/political dynamics were at play).
Perhaps if we had a “college of professional pilots” and agreed to terms country wide it would be an advantage. But for now…. Present position HOLD.
1) Access to a legal department not paid for by the RD family (should I need it - knock on wood)
2) Be pulling in the same direction as the majority of the industry
3) Have some nicer merger protections in place if it ever came to that.
IMO we've outgrown the FOAG. The committee is lacking teeth. Stuff is getting changed on a whim here and there with no real transparency and I think the anemic engagement from the pilot group is a sign of a "whatever" attitude.
I just don't think the Porter group should be lambasted or eyerolled at because they haven't decided to go that direction (yet).
You’re right, the FOAG is old, and certain chapters need to be rewritten completely, especially with the E2 coming into play. And yes the company has been randomly adding and changing policies to fit what works for them.
In my previous time at companies unionized by ALPA, I did not feel that they had the teeth required for major gains. It’s a slow climb at best. They all try their best, and especially when newly appointed board members are gung ho about making changes.
The reality is, it’s never that simple, it’s always a trade: you get something when you give something back.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good thing to have proper representation and for sure ALPA can help in certain ways. But once you sign that contract, you’re stuck with it…. (Jazz 2035)
Re: Announced routes
Yes, that is what Porter did; sold some of the purchased E2-195s and are now leasing them back. They did the same thing with the terminal at YTZ. It’s not a good sign. It’s indicative of “burning the furniture to heat the house”. The long term for such an endeavour is rarely better.CaptDukeNukem wrote: ↑Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:34 pm From what I understand they got a pretty good deal on the E2s. Also, sold them to a few leasing companies for a small profit then leased them back right away. Which I believe is termed appropriately a leaseback
Again, I have zero idea as to what exactly was written in that deal, but I do believe that they are making sound business decisions and cost per mile for the E2 is wayyyyy better than mostly everything other than the 220.
They sold the YTZ terminal for about $550M and are leasing it back for $54M a year. It burned them during the Covid shutdown, as their recently lost court case requires they pay back the $100M+ accrued for rent/slots even though it wasn’t used.
The cost per mile of the 195 is good, but not “wayyyyyy” better. But …. that is per airplane mile, not seat mile. The best seat mile costs for a 4-5 hour flight are the Max8 (189 seats) and the A321 (200 seats). The 189 seat 737-800 is still worthy of mention, and still better than an E2-195.
Re: Announced routes
Don’t underestimate the most important part of having a union in place… SCOPE
Sure there is a pilot shortage today but let’s say we hit a bad recession and suddenly there is a surplus of pilots. Porter could open a YYC and yvr base and call it west porter but pay the E2 drivers 10% less and you can’t do anything about it. L
Look at the westjet pilots they found out the hard way with the company creating swoop before they had it in their contract
Sure there is a pilot shortage today but let’s say we hit a bad recession and suddenly there is a surplus of pilots. Porter could open a YYC and yvr base and call it west porter but pay the E2 drivers 10% less and you can’t do anything about it. L
Look at the westjet pilots they found out the hard way with the company creating swoop before they had it in their contract
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Re: Announced routes
Their issue isn't crewing 50 jets, it's crewing the Q400's after all those pilots move onto the jets. That's why opening western pilot bases won't help them. They need the Jet carrot dangle to somehow bring qualified pilots who will work for peanuts in YTZ. Hiring ots jet pilots in the west where they don't have any turboprops won't help that at all.
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Re: Announced routes
Oh boy they already have worked on keeping the crew on those jets. Everyone hired on the dash 8 at porter after 2022 has been subjected to a 2 year fleet lock from date of hire. This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.co-joe wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:48 pmTheir issue isn't crewing 50 jets, it's crewing the Q400's after all those pilots move onto the jets. That's why opening western pilot bases won't help them. They need the Jet carrot dangle to somehow bring qualified pilots who will work for peanuts in YTZ. Hiring ots jet pilots in the west where they don't have any turboprops won't help that at all.
Re: Announced routes
It’s the same at jazz isn’t it? 2 years on equipment?
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Re: Announced routes
2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.
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Re: Announced routes
Nothing motivates people to leave more than a glass ceiling. Look at Encore and Jazz right now, they're leaving in droves because the carrot dangle got moldy or went away.vanislepilot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:07 am
Oh boy they already have worked on keeping the crew on those jets. Everyone hired on the dash 8 at porter after 2022 has been subjected to a 2 year fleet lock from date of hire. This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.
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Re: Announced routes
Because overall I think Porter's pilot group is quite anemic. Half have been here for a long time and are happy. The other half are brand new and for many of them it's their first exposure to 705 and don't want to rock the boat too much.vanislepilot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:07 am
...This is not a rumor and I still don't know why that issue hasn't been addressed on this forum.
I agree the move was greasy. Infuriating how it was promised that it wasn't a lock in the Oct call "because it's an initial award not a transition" and then yanked the award. Only way to push back is go somewhere else or find better representation.
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Re: Announced routes
And don’t forget that all of those pilots who were awarded the E2 then had it taken away a week later had their resumes out for other carriers the very next day.vanislepilot wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:42 am2 years that can be waived for operational requirements. This would have been fine if it was addressed properly. A lot of pilots were awarded the jet, given groundschool dates, planned their lives accordingly. THEN the company turned around and cancelled their groundschools stating a shortage of q pilots less than 30 days before some pilots GS (A shortage that can very easily be fixed imo) and slapping them with a 2 year Q lock.
With a lot of jet fo positions readily available at other companies this was a piss poor move.
Re: Announced routes
I understand their frustration/anger re having their offer rescinded but common man, most of those folks had been at the company all of 7/8 months tops. A wee bit of entitlement no? I guess voice your anger with your feet if you are that pissed.