Instructors: Stop telling your students they need to "go instructing"...

[RoAF-Mig21]

I've been in this industry a while and I've had my fair share of struggles, trying to climb the ladder of this industry.

A few days ago, on a deadhead flight back to my home base, I met a young man that sat beside me. I was in uniform, a little tired and just wanted to go home so I can finally get on with my Christmas vacation. He seemed very excited to sit beside "a pilot" and told me he just finished his CPL, Multi-IFR and was looking for a job. He wanted my advice.

I've had a lot of advice over the years from many senior pilots, that I owe a lot to and the only thing they asked me is to "pay it forward". I'm always happy to give advice to new pilots. One thing I make a point to mention is that my advice is " one of many opinions" and he or she should seek advice from others and make a decision that best serve their interests.

This young man, was in his mid 20s, with an engineering degree, CPL, multi engine IFR rating. His goal was to fly for a major airline. Right away he seemed very much against any job that would require him to be a "grunt", meaning working ramp. He seemed that the more "posh" approach was to be an instructor and eventually get on a King Air, Q400 and then make it to Big Red or Team Teal.

My advice is always this: "If you want to be an airline pilot, try your best to get a job that has you fly a multi engine, multi crew, IFR, turbine or jet aircraft", ASAP. He then went on to tell me how his instructors told him that it would be a great thing to get some instructing experience, blah blah blah blah.

SORRY NO! INSTRUCTING IS NOT THE WAY TO GO IF YOU WANT TO BE AN AIRLINE PILOT.

Besides the $15,000 you're wasting on an instructor rating, all you're doing is delaying that "turboprop job".

I'm not putting down instructors. If you want to be a career instructor, that's a very noble profession and I have the outmost respect for those individuals. However, if you want to instruct because you feel "you're too good to work ramp", then you need to rethink Canadian aviation. (That's my kind side. My real side would tell you to go **** yourself!).

So, new pilots. If you want to be an airline pilot, make sure you look at the experience that airlines actually seek, not what some vain 300 hour wonder (Class IV) instructor tells you to do.

[yhz41]

I've been in this industry a while and I've had my fair share of struggles, trying to climb the ladder of this industry.

A few days ago, on a deadhead flight back to my home base, I met a young man that sat beside me. I was in uniform, a little tired and just wanted to go home so I can finally get on with my Christmas vacation. He seemed very excited to sit beside "a pilot" and told me he just finished his CPL, Multi-IFR and was looking for a job. He wanted my advice.

I've had a lot of advice over the years from many senior pilots, that I owe a lot to and the only thing they asked me is to "pay it forward". I'm always happy to give advice to new pilots. One thing I make a point to mention is that my advice is " one of many opinions" and he or she should seek advice from others and make a decision that best serve their interests.

This young man, was in his mid 20s, with an engineering degree, CPL, multi engine IFR rating. His goal was to fly for a major airline. Right away he seemed very much against any job that would require him to be a "grunt", meaning working ramp. He seemed that the more "posh" approach was to be an instructor and eventually get on a King Air, Q400 and then make it to Big Red or Team Teal.

My advice is always this: "If you want to be an airline pilot, try your best to get a job that has you fly a multi engine, multi crew, IFR, turbine or jet aircraft", ASAP. He then went on to tell me how his instructors told him that it would be a great thing to get some instructing experience, blah blah blah blah.

SORRY NO! INSTRUCTING IS NOT THE WAY TO GO IF YOU WANT TO BE AN AIRLINE PILOT.

Besides the $15,000 you're wasting on an instructor rating, all you're doing is delaying that "turboprop job".

I'm not putting down instructors. If you want to be a career instructor, that's a very noble profession and I have the outmost respect for those individuals. However, if you want to instruct because you feel "you're too good to work ramp", then you need to rethink Canadian aviation. (That's my kind side. My real side would tell you to go **** yourself!).

So, new pilots. If you want to be an airline pilot, make sure you look at the experience that airlines actually seek, not what some vain 300 hour wonder (Class IV) instructor tells you to do.

Tell that to all the FOs at your company who can't upgrade because they don't have PIC time.

[digits_]

Besides the $15,000 you're wasting on an instructor rating, all you're doing is delaying that "turboprop job".

The first part ('wasting') is up for discussion, but the second part is just plain wrong.

1500 hours of instructing with multi pic in there, and you'll get a DEC king air medevac job. That's reality. Might even be less nowadays.

However, if you want to instruct because you feel "you're too good to work ramp", then you need to rethink Canadian aviation. (That's my kind side. My real side would tell you to go **** yourself!).

I doubt the young man thought he was 'too good' to work the ramp. Only that he would prefer to fly. Shocking, isn't it? Or perhaps he didn't want to get dangled a carrot working the ramp while all the instructors with flying experience got hired for the job he'd been ramping for.

[RockSalty]

1500 hours of instructing with multi pic in there, and you'll get a DEC king air medevac job. That's reality. Might even be less nowadays.

It wasn't a lot less but I got into mine with ~1400tt and the multi pic from instructing.

Having PIC time and actually being able to get an ATPL is huge nowadays apparently.

[northernpilot2]

The advice I would give is @#$! the ramp job, and get flying right away instead. Even if you hate instructing, do it, suck it up. Get the hours. Just don't be a shitty instructor to get hours, do your fukn job.

NEVER offer and NEVER accept a job flying for FREE. The only time you should P2F is when your doing your initial flight training (PPL, CPL, etc.), not pay for a type rating.

rant over

[Big Pistons Forever]

Many airline pilots started as instructors and then moved up through the industry. One thing is for sure, having flying hours is better than not having flying hours on your resume.

The industry has more opportunities for new pilots than at any time I have ever seen, however it still seems that a 250 hr CPL will have fewer job opportunities in the 704/705 scheduled airlines than a 750 hour instructor, and right now there is definitely an instructor shortage

I started my career 38 years ago as an instructor. I found that the requirement to work with others in the cockpit and the reinforcement of foundation aviation skills and knowledge served me well in my post instructing jobs.

The only thing that really matters is that anyone who goes the instructor route, takes the job seriously. There are already too many instructors warming the right seat instead of doing their job and putting the effort in to provide quality training.

[2112]

There really is no wrong way to go about it, If you want to ramp then ramp if you want to instruct fill your boots but please take the job seriously for your students sake. Everyone will be in an airliner soon enough if that's where you want to be, don't forget to look out the window every now and then.

[RoAF-Mig21]

There really is no wrong way to go about it, If you want to ramp then ramp if you want to instruct fill your boots but please take the job seriously for your students sake. Everyone will be in an airliner soon enough if that's where you want to be, don't forget to look out the window every now and then.

Best comment! Agreed 100%.

[flyingcanuck]

I'm not putting down instructors. If you want to be a career instructor, that's a very noble profession and I have the outmost respect for those individuals. However, if you want to instruct because you feel "you're too good to work ramp", then you need to rethink Canadian aviation. (That's my kind side. My real side would tell you to go **** yourself!).

So, new pilots. If you want to be an airline pilot, make sure you look at the experience that airlines actually seek, not what some vain 300 hour wonder (Class IV) instructor tells you to do.

You really are putting them down though. And when will you guys learn that just because you had to do it the younger generations should?

I instructed because I love teaching AND I just spent 60k learning to fly, not move bags. I have a great career, just because YOU don't respect the different experience instructors get (vs not flying an airplane apparently) doesn't mean you should crap all over them.

Instructing for a bit then working a 703 for a couple years is fantastic and you will be set in your career.

/Rant

[RoAF-Mig21]

I'm not putting down instructors. If you want to be a career instructor, that's a very noble profession and I have the outmost respect for those individuals. However, if you want to instruct because you feel "you're too good to work ramp", then you need to rethink Canadian aviation. (That's my kind side. My real side would tell you to go **** yourself!).

So, new pilots. If you want to be an airline pilot, make sure you look at the experience that airlines actually seek, not what some vain 300 hour wonder (Class IV) instructor tells you to do.

You really are putting them down though. And when will you guys learn that just because you had to do it the younger generations should?

I instructed because I love teaching AND I just spent 60k learning to fly, not move bags. I have a great career, just because YOU don't respect the different experience instructors get (vs not flying an airplane apparently) doesn't mean you should crap all over them.

Instructing for a bit then working a 703 for a couple years is fantastic and you will be set in your career.

/Rant

I'm sorry you feel that way. That's what you take from my comment.

My "distatasteful" comment was aimed at those perticular individuals that think they're above getting their hands dirty and as a result lead their unknowing students to a longer path in their aviation career. It's not aimed at all instructors. Nobody's saying we should not encourage new pilots to become instructos, but if someone's goal is to be an airline pilot, then getting that multi engine, multi crew IFR experience is the goal, ASAP, not spend $15,000 just so you can build up some time quicker. That's almost like "pay to fly" they have in Europe.

I've met too many people over the years that would rather instruct for 5 years than work a year on the ramp. That's fine, it's their perogative. No there is no wrong way


Quote:
"And when will you guys learn that just because you had to do it the younger generations should?"

Don't make this abou that. It's not about that. Guys in Europe fly A320s with 200 hrs. If you could do that here, I'd recommend that. And while we're on this topic, I would recommend going to Seneca and going straight to the airlines after graduation, not having to work ramp or instruct. THAT'S THE FASTEST WAY.

What I had to do was what I had to do. It was my path. It sure as f*ck took me years longer to get where I wanted to, but for different reasons.


Quote:
"Instructing for a bit then working a 703 for a couple years is fantastic and you will be set in your career."

Sure. I don't disagree, but at what cost, and is it worth spending $15,000 and delaying your airline seniority ? You know very well you won't get that multi engine time (instructing) in your first 2 years. Also, when applying at Porter, what's more valuable? 1500 hrs on a Cessna 172 or 1500 hrs on a King Air or Metro?

[digits_]

My "distatasteful" comment was aimed at those perticular individuals that think they're above getting their hands dirty and as a result lead their unknowing students to a longer path in their aviation career.

Those are again 2 different things. Encouraging someone to become an FI will create a longer aviation career because they will be flying sooner. And if so desired, will likely reach the airlines (much) sooner.

It's not aimed at all instructors. Nobody's saying we should not encourage new pilots to become instructos, but if someone's goal is to be an airline pilot, then getting that multi engine, multi crew IFR experience is the goal, ASAP, not spend $15,000 just so you can build up some time quicker. That's almost like "pay to fly" they have in Europe.

2 years of instructing, and you'll be making multi crew, multi turbine PIC time if you so desire. One year of that and you're off to the airlines if you like.
You might even get hired at the airlines as soon as you have your ATPL. Could be in 1.5 years.

I've met too many people over the years that would rather instruct for 5 years than work a year on the ramp. That's fine, it's their perogative. No there is no wrong way

That's not the situation today. It's 'instruct for 2 years while making hours or ramp for a year'.

I'd say the ramp *is* the wrong way of going about things. It doesn't benefit anyone. If all pilots would refuse ramp jobs, you would get properly paid ramp jobs done by people who actually want to do it.

Sure. I don't disagree, but at what cost, and is it worth spending $15,000 and delaying your airline seniority ? You know very well you won't get that multi engine time (instructing) in your first 2 years. Also, when applying at Porter, what's more valuable? 1500 hrs on a Cessna 172 or 1500 hrs on a King Air or Metro?

Again, your premise is flawed. Let's compare those 2 scenarios.

start out with 200 hours
1 year ramp - end with 200 hours
2 years of FO king air flying @ 650 hours/year - 1300 hours of king air, end with 1500 hours TT , assume you're lucky and got your ATPL requirements along the way somehow

start out with 200 hours
1.5 year of instructing @ 800 hours / year - end with 1400 hours (likely a few hundred multi pic in that time)
1.5 year of king air PIC @ 650 hours /year - end with ATPL and 2375 hours TT, of which 975 mutli crew multi turbine PIC.

Which candidate would you hire for your airline?

[RoAF-Mig21]

start out with 200 hours
1 year ramp - end with 200 hours
2 years of FO king air flying @ 650 hours/year - 1300 hours of king air, end with 1500 hours TT , assume you're lucky and got your ATPL requirements along the way somehow

start out with 200 hours
1.5 year of instructing @ 800 hours / year - end with 1400 hours (likely a few hundred multi pic in that time)
1.5 year of king air PIC @ 650 hours /year - end with ATPL and 2375 hours TT, of which 975 mutli crew multi turbine PIC.

Which candidate would you hire for your airline?

Good points... If it was 2010...

It's 2022 and one does not need "2375 hrs" to go to a regional airline... or even right seat on a 737.

That's my point. 1000 hrs multi engine will get you that airline job faster and further than 1000 hrs instructing on a Cessna. That's the reality of 2022.

I feel I need to repeat myself of the amount of money a Flight Instructor rating costs (upward of $15,000). I'd love to have one. I love teaching and I'd love to do it part time at my local flying club. It's just not realistic. (For more than one reason).

Sounds to me like you're hung up on "being offended", because at one point you were a flight instructor. I did not mean to do that and it shouldn't be taken that way. Honestly. Wanna be a flight instructor and delay that airline job for an extra year or two, while spending $15,000 because you don't want to work 8-12 months on a ramp? By all means, let them. In the end they'll have that too under their belt and it'll come in handy. Maybe they'll join the training department at the airlines. They pay well and god knows we need IPT / SIM instructors. Everyone in this industry needs them.

Let me be as clear as I can, in capital bold letters:
"NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR***, IT'S GOOD EXPERIENCE AND IT WILL SERVE YOU WELL DOWN THE ROAD. DOES IT HELP YOU GET THAT AIRLINE SENIORITY SOONER? NOT IN TODAY'S MARKET." That's all I'm going to say.

(*** as long as you're not one of those instructors that's only there to get their hours)

[digits_]

start out with 200 hours
1 year ramp - end with 200 hours
2 years of FO king air flying @ 650 hours/year - 1300 hours of king air, end with 1500 hours TT , assume you're lucky and got your ATPL requirements along the way somehow

start out with 200 hours
1.5 year of instructing @ 800 hours / year - end with 1400 hours (likely a few hundred multi pic in that time)
1.5 year of king air PIC @ 650 hours /year - end with ATPL and 2375 hours TT, of which 975 mutli crew multi turbine PIC.

Which candidate would you hire for your airline?

Good points... If it was 2010...

It's 2022 and one does not need "2375 hrs" to go to a regional airline... or even right seat on a 737.

That's my point. 1000 hrs multi engine will get you that airline job faster and further than 1000 hrs instructing on a Cessna. That's the reality of 2022.

I feel I need to repeat myself of the amount of money a Flight Instructor rating costs (upward of $15,000). I'd love to have one. I love teaching and I'd love to do it part time at my local flying club. It's just not realistic. (For more than one reason).

Sounds to me like you're hung up on "being offended", because at one point you were a flight instructor. I did not mean to do that and it shouldn't be taken that way. Honestly. Wanna be a flight instructor and delay that airline job for an extra year or two, while spending $15,000 because you don't want to work 8-12 months on a ramp? By all means, let them. In the end they'll have that too under their belt and it'll come in handy. Maybe they'll join the training department at the airlines. They pay well and god knows we need IPT / SIM instructors. Everyone in this industry needs them.

Let me be as clear as I can, in capital bold letters:
"NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR***, IT'S GOOD EXPERIENCE AND IT WILL SERVE YOU WELL DOWN THE ROAD. DOES IT HELP YOU GET THAT AIRLINE SENIORITY SOONER? NOT IN TODAY'S MARKET." That's all I'm going to say.

(*** as long as you're not one of those instructors that's only there to get their hours)

I'm not hung op on being offended, I just think your advice is factually wrong.

You might get hired with 1000 multi, athough I haven't seen that particular requirement anywhere. Most ads seem to be ATPL and 500 multi.
You can easily adjust my example to get atpl and 500 hours. A ramp guy will take at least 2 years flying + 1 year ramp, which is 3 years to get that experience.
An instructor would get it after 2 years of instructing if you don't care about the multi crew, or a few months of medevac tacked on to that if they care about that.

Fact is that the average instructor will fly more than the average 703 pilot, and that the instructor will have been flying one year longer than the ramp guy in our example. That's a lot of hours when starting out.

Also note that a lot of ramp jobs are advertised for float jobs or small single engine airplanes. A ramp job is no guarantee for a multi crew spot. There isn't even a guarantee for any kind of flying job. The only thing a ramp job guarantees, is that you'll never accept another one again.

For almost any job out there, the instructor route will get you in the airline company, or the money seat at 'lower' operators quicker.

You're right about the cost. It's a bit more expensive. Depends on how you value that. You could potentially earn more as an instructor than as a rampie though. So that might offset it a bit.

[Turboprops]

start out with 200 hours
1 year ramp - end with 200 hours
2 years of FO king air flying @ 650 hours/year - 1300 hours of king air, end with 1500 hours TT , assume you're lucky and got your ATPL requirements along the way somehow

start out with 200 hours
1.5 year of instructing @ 800 hours / year - end with 1400 hours (likely a few hundred multi pic in that time)
1.5 year of king air PIC @ 650 hours /year - end with ATPL and 2375 hours TT, of which 975 mutli crew multi turbine PIC.

Which candidate would you hire for your airline?

Do instructors actually get DEC king air jobs though? I’ve personally never heard of it. Even if someone did, that wouldn’t be the norm.

You’re also missing a minimum of 6 month to get an instructor rating if you’re in YVR/YYZ.

In 2022 I’ve personally seen people only spending 4-5 months to go from ramp to FO, so the difference might not be as big as you make it out to be.

[digits_]

Do instructors actually get DEC king air jobs though? I’ve personally never heard of it. Even if someone did, that wouldn’t be the norm.

I've seen it. Medevac companies are desperate. If you meet the requirements, you'll get hired. Doesn't matter what you flew before.

You’re also missing a minimum of 6 month to get an instructor rating if you’re in YVR/YYZ.

Good point. Depends a bit on the location. It could easily be done in a month if the school's motivated (and assuming the student is capable).

Also note that there is a plethora of companies out there. You could likely find an FO spot somewhere with 700 hours on a 172 as well. Lots of options. But I would generalize that having flying hours is more beneficial than ramp experience. You can do a lot of flying in 5 months or a year.

[CPU2000]

Great thread & interesting points

Thanks for the discussion

I personally think becoming an instructor is a great way to start a career as you learn a lot about mentoring others

A skill that is useful for the rest of your career. You should always be teaching

[vanislepilot]

Not cool of you to down the instructing route. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and I wish I could meet this fellow on your deadhead and reverse all the nonsense you fed him.

At 200 hours it is very very difficult to even find a multi engine turbine job right off the bat. It was super rare when I finished in 2018, without a solid connection it was instructing and survey jobs. THEN at 500 hours you have the leverage.

Is instructing as challenging as flying an approach to mins in blowing snow onto a gravel strip? No probably not. However you get to deal with many many personalities and train in a way that works for each individual. Bonus is you get a lot of pic time (I logged 600 in 10 months). Plus now you'll have the skills to tolerate less than pleasant captains.

I've heard at Porter a huge chunk of new hires come from purely instructing route. Hell some at Jazz have bid DEC but I'm sure that hasn't gone smooth LOL.

An argument can be made at the instructing route is actually a FASTER way to the airlines today as you can time build very fast (A lot of turboprop jobs fly <500 hrs a year, some as low as 200)

Also stop scaring 20 year olds that they are "delaying" their seniority. Even if they get to an airline at 25 that's 40 years.

Life's no rush. Do what works for you. Enjoy the journey

[‘Bob’]

Sorry. You’re just wrong.

Instructing is not only the fastest way to get to the airlines, you don’t have to get your hands dirty either.

$15k for an instructor rating is nothing compared to the extra year or two or even more you have to slave away on the ramp.

Then the money you have to pay to stay current or get your ratings back.

Then the extra years you are stuck right seat because you don’t have the night or PIC time to hold an ATPL.

Then the years you are slaving away on the line rather than going into training or ACP because of that rating you have.

Oh yeah “just go to Seneca then go to the airlines”. Sure. Just go to the RCAF. Just go to Europe with rich parents who can buy you an A320 type ratings. Just put it all down on meme stocks or crypto and buy your own jet. Just do better.

Get your instructor rating, get your PIC, multi, night, and ATPL. Go DEC on a turboprop for $100k for a couple years to get yourself established. And punch your number at your favourite mainline airline while Mr Bag Thrower has finally made it to Jazz or Encore as a perpetual FO because he can’t upgrade.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Also stop scaring 20 year olds that they are "delaying" their seniority. Even if they get to an airline at 25 that's 40 years.

Life's no rush. Do what works for you. Enjoy the journey

It's not a rush, but having 10 people below you could be the difference between you being on reserve, having to live close to a base that costs a lot of money or having options, like living further away and being able to commute by air, rail or car. It makes a difference man.

And to be fair, this guy was asking my advice on the fastest way to the airlines.

[digits_]

Then of course, what you should *really* have told him was to use that engineering degree to get an engineering job so he could fly his own private planes in a few years