MOA

[skyhighh]

There is no requirement for the company o come back for MOA #2 and having experience with them, they will most likely say f*** it and wait until the negotiations.
The raises offered are nowhere near enough to keep people on site and/or attract anybody. That died with the « one list ». The only FOs Encore can hire are pilots with barely any experience who will not go captain anytime soon. The training captains won’t put on hold their their career for a couple hundred extra $ after tax. The training pilots at Encore are some of the least paid compared to the rest of the industry. I’ve experienced that first hand. The extra pay bump just put them close to the competition. This is in no way shape or form a way to keep pilots from leaving. Nowhere near enough.

JBI has lots of experience dealing with WestJet and ALPA, I would listen to what he says above. He has been right numerous times. Don’t miss out on an opportunity to get a raise while giving up nothing.

The Air Canada pilots voted NO to their MOA and the company wanted something in return. I don’t see AC coming back for MOA #2. And think about it, if you vote YES, pilots with 500 hours at WEN will make more than Air Canada FOs with 5.000h

[averageatbest]

I am in the yes vote camp.

I think it is wrong to say that this MOA is money for nothing without listening to those who say it. The argument that I keep hearing from the no camp is that this money will undermine our efforts to fix the other major issues plaguing the company and it's employees (pay, scheduling, commuting, job security, respect). The reasoning comes in a few flavours:

1. Never accept the first offer
2. The lump sum payment is not a change to our compensation (pay scales) and can be clawed back during the CA2 negotiations
3. It doesn't address anything other than cost of living
4. The union says it's a bad offer

I personally disagree with all of these arguments because I believe that they all have fundamental flaws to their reasoning.

1. This is not the first offer made to the union. During the talks that lasted three sessions, there was back and forth. In addition, these talks can be considered to be a part of earlier talks where the union rejected proposals by the company for not being inclusive of all pilots. Most importantly, unlike contract negotiations, there is no law or regulation requiring the company to make a new offer if the pilot group refuses this one.
2. The company may try to argue that a lump sum payment is not a change of total compensation, but the fact that EVERY pilot will be receiving extra money on their pay cheques from an MOA talking specifically about compensation, an arbitrator would have to do some mental gymnastics to conclude that money listed on a pay cheque that is not a benefit or reimbursement is also not compensation. The base line will be set $10,200 per year greater than it is today.
3. This is the only point that I agree wholeheartedly with. It absolutely does not address anything other than cost of living. It's not a reason to reject it.
4. The MEC and Negotiating Committee will not use their personal opinions to try to sway the vote. If you listen to what they have been saying it is clear that their professional opinions are that this is money without concessions and that this will not have a negative effect on future negotiations.

I could debate this MOA all day, but since I was not in the room nor do I have anything other than a single vote in the matter, the best place to air concerns are during the calls. There is one today in a little over two hours. Attend it. Air your concerns. Vote educated.

[futboler14]

2. The company may try to argue that a lump sum payment is not a change of total compensation, but the fact that EVERY pilot will be receiving extra money on their pay cheques from an MOA talking specifically about compensation, an arbitrator would have to do some mental gymnastics to conclude that money listed on a pay cheque that is not a benefit or reimbursement is also not compensation. The base line will be set $10,200 per year greater than it is today.

Can an Encore pilot walk into a bank and apply for a loan based on this lump sum amount?

Will an Encore pilot receive compensation based upon this lump sum amount when they go on disability? WCB?

If the answer to these two simple questions is no... smoke and mirrors

[averageatbest]

2. The company may try to argue that a lump sum payment is not a change of total compensation, but the fact that EVERY pilot will be receiving extra money on their pay cheques from an MOA talking specifically about compensation, an arbitrator would have to do some mental gymnastics to conclude that money listed on a pay cheque that is not a benefit or reimbursement is also not compensation. The base line will be set $10,200 per year greater than it is today.

Can an Encore pilot walk into a bank and apply for a loan based on this lump sum amount?

Will an Encore pilot receive compensation based upon this lump sum amount when they go on disability? WCB?

If the answer to these two simple questions is no... smoke and mirrors

If you're going to turn down $10,000 because you can't use it to take out a loan for more money, then you're going to end up with no loan and no extra money.

[JBI]

2. The company may try to argue that a lump sum payment is not a change of total compensation, but the fact that EVERY pilot will be receiving extra money on their pay cheques from an MOA talking specifically about compensation, an arbitrator would have to do some mental gymnastics to conclude that money listed on a pay cheque that is not a benefit or reimbursement is also not compensation. The base line will be set $10,200 per year greater than it is today.

Can an Encore pilot walk into a bank and apply for a loan based on this lump sum amount?

Most likely yes. The monthly lump sum payment counts as income that is documented on your T4. It is not contingent upon meeting a certain threshold of work or staying for a certain amount of time. Nonetheless, even if it was somewhat non-guaranteed, what constitutes income depends on the particular lender. As outlined in this document: https://www.richardsmortgagegroup.ca/more-about-income - items that may be considered irregular income can still be used as income to support your ability to prove your income for a loan. But I repeat, this lump sum is not irregular or contingent upon an event happening.

Will an Encore pilot receive compensation based upon this lump sum amount when they go on disability? WCB?

This answer is "sort of". For Encore's Disability plan, your income is reported when you renew your policy OR when you have a "Life Event". This is outlined in your plan's policy document. As we (me) outlined in a previous ALPA Grievance e-mail, we were running into problems when FOs would upgrade mid-policy, but they didn't report their higher income to the disability insurer so when they went on disability, they were only paid out based on their FO salary. To be clear, this is a pretty standard thing with disability insurance and not a trick by the company. I will state though that I do not know if this increase in salary counts as a "life event". In a small way, every pilot is sometimes slightly underinsured when it comes to disability insurance as their step pay rate is often slightly higher than it was when the disability plan was renewed.

For WCB, that's different than disability and, generally, YES, the monthly lump sum payment is considered for WCB earnings UP to the maximum earnings amount of $98,700 for 2022/$102,100 for 2023 for Alberta. Keep in mind, WCB is provincially regulated and varies by province.

More information on Alberta's WCB earnings calculation can be found at: https://www.wcb.ab.ca/assets/pdfs/emplo ... nings).pdf

Basically, an earnings that need to be reported towards at T4 count as earners. These lump sum payments would definitely need to be reported towards someone's T4. And, reading the document above a little further, often bonuses and discretionary payments DO indeed need to be reported as income to the Province for WCB purposes. I repeat though, this lump sum payment isn't discretionary. The only time when the answer is "No" is for the senior Captains who likely already make higher than the maximum assessable earnings. In this case, the amount above $102,100, regardless of lump sum or increased step-pay will not count towards WCB.

If the answer to these two simple questions is no... smoke and mirrors

Answers to these questions are usually not black and white, HOWEVER, the answers are usually publicly accessible to be found and answered. I hope Encore pilots spend the time to find out the answers and not just assume things that are not correct.

Again, I'm not saying Encore pilots should vote yes or no, but they should do the work to inform themselves of the issues.

[truecolours]

Encore is mere weeks into life recruiting with no PTA and they whip up a moa. It is quite obvious THEY need this more than the pilot group.

It is always hard to say no to money. Especially in this financial market, but I do believe there is a bigger slice of cake available for those willing to wait. The company is desperate and they are attempting to fix it with a band aid solution.

There is nothing wrong with what is being offered, but they need to solidify the offer as permanent gains. Let's return to the mortgage question above. So you qualify for a mortgage with these new temporary measures. The temporary measures go away (or you get sick and go on STD/LTD), and are left paying for that larger mortgage on less income. Was it really wise to use this temporary money (whether you are allowed to or not?).

I don't have a vote in this, but I know what it would be - NO.

Temporary gains are not really gains at all.

[averageatbest]

I don't have a vote in this, but I know what it would be - NO.

It's always easier to take big risks when you're not the one taking the big risk.

[truecolours]

I don't have a vote in this, but I know what it would be - NO.

It's always easier to take big risks when you're not the one taking the big risk.

This is true, but so is the fact this is a temporary pay raise. I assume you work at WEN, so I can say we both know the type of people we are dealing with on the other side.

Saying no is a risk, but saying yes is a guarantee to returning to your current salary at some point in time.

If they can't pay a permanent sustainable salary, the company is just going to have to wither away as pilots follow the money elsewhere.

[JBI]

I don't have a vote in this, but I know what it would be - NO.

It's always easier to take big risks when you're not the one taking the big risk.

This is true, but so is the fact this is a temporary pay raise. I assume you work at WEN, so I can say we both know the type of people we are dealing with on the other side.

Saying no is a risk, but saying yes is a guarantee to returning to your current salary at some point in time.

If they can't pay a permanent sustainable salary, the company is just going to have to wither away as pilots follow the money elsewhere.

The pay raise is not temporary. It goes until a new collective agreement is ratified. Which, is like ALL current terms and conditions.

I'll rephrase, the monthly lump sum payment will continue until one of three things happen:
1- The Pilots Strike,
2- The Company Locks the Pilots Out, or
3- A New Collective Agreement is voted on and ratified.

So, the only way to go back to someone's "current" salary is for the pilots to vote on it again.

[averageatbest]

I don't have a vote in this, but I know what it would be - NO.

It's always easier to take big risks when you're not the one taking the big risk.

This is true, but so is the fact this is a temporary pay raise. I assume you work at WEN, so I can say we both know the type of people we are dealing with on the other side.

Saying no is a risk, but saying yes is a guarantee to returning to your current salary at some point in time.

If they can't pay a permanent sustainable salary, the company is just going to have to wither away as pilots follow the money elsewhere.

Saying yes is guaranteeing $10,000 + an extra step of pay until a new CBA comes into effect (not voted yes, but is in effect).

Saying no guarantees the current pay scales remains for another 9 months at the bare minimum

[averageatbest]

The pay raise is not temporary. It goes until a new collective agreement is ratified. Which, is like ALL current terms and conditions.

I'll rephrase, the monthly lump sum payment will continue until one of three things happen:
1- The Pilots Strike,
2- The Company Locks the Pilots Out, or
3- A New Collective Agreement is voted on and ratified.

So, the only way to go back to someone's "current" salary is for the pilots to vote on it again.

The MOA has nothing about #1 or #2. Why do you believe that would be a potential to end the MOA term?

The term is expressly defined as per the below:

This MOA shall come into effect January 1, 2023,and shall terminate on December 31, 2023 or on the date the next Collective Agreement takes effect, whichever is later.

[JBI]

The pay raise is not temporary. It goes until a new collective agreement is ratified. Which, is like ALL current terms and conditions.

I'll rephrase, the monthly lump sum payment will continue until one of three things happen:
1- The Pilots Strike,
2- The Company Locks the Pilots Out, or
3- A New Collective Agreement is voted on and ratified.

So, the only way to go back to someone's "current" salary is for the pilots to vote on it again.

The MOA has nothing about #1 or #2. Why do you believe that would be a potential to end the MOA term?

The term is expressly defined as per the below:

This MOA shall come into effect January 1, 2023,and shall terminate on December 31, 2023 or on the date the next Collective Agreement takes effect, whichever is later.

truecolours suggested that the lump sum payment was somehow temporary. averageatbest, you are correct, The lump sum payment will continue until there is a New Collective Agreement in effect. And while I think it's most likely that the event that triggers the end of the lump sum payment (and MOA) will be the coming into effect of a new Collective Agreement, negotiations often continue after the first Collective Agreement has expired (for example, the WJ mainline Agreement technically expires in 3 days, but they are in negotiations). The lump sum payment will continue during negotiations. Now, if it turns out that the parties cannot reach a new agreement, the lump sum payment will still continue until there is a work stoppage (such as a lockout or strike).

Basically, I was outlining that the lump sum payment is as 'permanent' as any other type of remuneration. But wanted to be clear of the ways in which the lump sum payment could stop being paid.

[averageatbest]

truecolours suggested that the lump sum payment was somehow temporary. averageatbest, you are correct, The lump sum payment will continue until there is a New Collective Agreement in effect. And while I think it's most likely that the event that triggers the end of the lump sum payment (and MOA) will be the coming into effect of a new Collective Agreement, negotiations often continue after the first Collective Agreement has expired (for example, the WJ mainline Agreement technically expires in 3 days, but they are in negotiations). The lump sum payment will continue during negotiations. Now, if it turns out that the parties cannot reach a new agreement, the lump sum payment will still continue until there is a work stoppage (such as a lockout or strike).

Basically, I was outlining that the lump sum payment is as 'permanent' as any other type of remuneration. But wanted to be clear of the ways in which the lump sum payment could stop being paid.

What I don't understand is why the lump sum payments would in the event of a work stoppage. Are you referring to the duration of a work stoppage or indefinitely?

[JBI]

What I don't understand is why the lump sum payments would in the event of a work stoppage. Are you referring to the duration of a work stoppage or indefinitely?

Ah, got it. In Canada, a work stoppage can only occur if the union and the company have followed the process set out in the Canada Labour Code and have not been able to negotiate a new Agreement. After a few different steps (conciliation, a cooling off period etc.) it is then up to one of the parties to decide whether a work stoppage (or other job action such as "work to rule" or "no overtime") would help pressure the other side to reach an agreement. A strike is the most often used job action, but sometimes others can be affective.

So during a work stoppage, no one is paid (that's probably understood, but just covering the basics). Very generally speaking, a strike or lockout will only end once a new Collective Agreement is agreed to, voted on, and in effect. So at the end of the day, it is theoretically possible for the lump sum payment to stop before a new Collective Agreement is in effect.

[Tolip]

Wow, the level of cool aid drinkers in these group is crazy.. free money, it's free money, the company wont renegotiate, we give up nothing, this wont solve any problems, we can just negotiate for other stuff later NBD... have any of you that are echoing these statements ever actually worked in the canadian aviation sector?? We have been getting screwed on the table, couch and on the floor of the bathroom since the conception of enore, meanwhile receiving the lowest most subpar airline pay in almost the ENTIRE world, the company has chipped away almost every worth while thing we have ever had going for us in this company, one list, ACM, multi base, career progression... and now when leverage is finally finally in our hands you want to POTENTIALLY put that at risk for 10k???.... when contract negotiations start in less then a year.. that's nuts. How do you not see that the company is desperate right now? Tbey came to us. There has not been a meaningful raise in the entire history of encore, and you think they are offering this out of the goodness of their hearts? This was negotiated in a month, after 3 meetings.. why would you think they would not have the ability to renegotiate?? That's nuts... we will never improve our WAWCON with this immediate "vote yes" mentality. I get that pilots are suffering at enore aswell as every other airline in Canada. But this offer is a steak, it's a meal.. and we will feel hungry again after a day.. let's not vote yes to .15% of what we need. We need to hold out for the full package.

[averageatbest]

Wow, the level of cool aid drinkers in these group is crazy.. free money, it's free money, the company wont renegotiate, we give up nothing, this wont solve any problems, we can just negotiate for other stuff later NBD... have any of you that are echoing these statements ever actually worked in the canadian aviation sector?? We have been getting screwed on the table, couch and on the floor of the bathroom since the conception of enore, meanwhile receiving the lowest most subpar airline pay in almost the ENTIRE world, the company has chipped away almost every worth while thing we have ever had going for us in this company, one list, ACM, multi base, career progression... and now when leverage is finally finally in our hands you want to POTENTIALLY put that at risk for 10k???.... when contract negotiations start in less then a year.. that's nuts. How do you not see that the company is desperate right now? Tbey came to us. There has not been a meaningful raise in the entire history of encore, and you think they are offering this out of the goodness of their hearts? This was negotiated in a month, after 3 meetings.. why would you think they would not have the ability to renegotiate?? That's nuts... we will never improve our WAWCON with this immediate "vote yes" mentality. I get that pilots are suffering at enore aswell as every other airline in Canada. But this offer is a steak, it's a meal.. and we will feel hungry again after a day.. let's not vote yes to .15% of what we need. We need to hold out for the full package.

Thank you for your contribution. I understand that your opinion is biased by emotion and rightfully so. Now that you have been able to vent, I suggest that you do the following.

1. Take a break from work related tasks including thinking about MOAs, LOAs, LOUs, and CB2. Watch a movie, take a walk, or eat a tub of ice cream
2. Watch the three union calls. Your concerns were addressed in them and I believe that you will gain a lot of insight from them.
3. Take another break
4. Participate in the final call on January 4. Ask your MEC and negotiating committee directly about your concerns. They will be able to tell you how it is without the broken telephone information you're finding on the line and in the chat groups.

You can find the videos of the pilot calls in the Google Drive under WEN Pilot Documents -> MEC Q&A Webinars -> December 2022

If you cannot find the Drive, check the ALPA or WEN Facebook groups or look at your MEC FastRead

[Tolip]

Wow, the level of cool aid drinkers in these group is crazy.. free money, it's free money, the company wont renegotiate, we give up nothing, this wont solve any problems, we can just negotiate for other stuff later NBD... have any of you that are echoing these statements ever actually worked in the canadian aviation sector?? We have been getting screwed on the table, couch and on the floor of the bathroom since the conception of enore, meanwhile receiving the lowest most subpar airline pay in almost the ENTIRE world, the company has chipped away almost every worth while thing we have ever had going for us in this company, one list, ACM, multi base, career progression... and now when leverage is finally finally in our hands you want to POTENTIALLY put that at risk for 10k???.... when contract negotiations start in less then a year.. that's nuts. How do you not see that the company is desperate right now? Tbey came to us. There has not been a meaningful raise in the entire history of encore, and you think they are offering this out of the goodness of their hearts? This was negotiated in a month, after 3 meetings.. why would you think they would not have the ability to renegotiate?? That's nuts... we will never improve our WAWCON with this immediate "vote yes" mentality. I get that pilots are suffering at enore aswell as every other airline in Canada. But this offer is a steak, it's a meal.. and we will feel hungry again after a day.. let's not vote yes to .15% of what we need. We need to hold out for the full package.

Thank you for your contribution. I understand that your opinion is biased by emotion and rightfully so. Now that you have been able to vent, I suggest that you do the following.

1. Take a break from work related tasks including thinking about MOAs, LOAs, LOUs, and CB2. Watch a movie, take a walk, or eat a tub of ice cream
2. Watch the three union calls. Your concerns were addressed in them and I believe that you will gain a lot of insight from them.
3. Take another break
4. Participate in the final call on January 4. Ask your MEC and negotiating committee directly about your concerns. They will be able to tell you how it is without the broken telephone information you're finding on the line and in the chat groups.

You can find the videos of the pilot calls in the Google Drive under WEN Pilot Documents -> MEC Q&A Webinars -> December 2022

If you cannot find the Drive, check the ALPA or WEN Facebook groups or look at your MEC FastRead

As this is avcanada, yes, vent my thoughts I will. I believe that is the function of this platform. Emotional, you bet. It's been a hard few years and it will continue to be hard as long as guys like you refuse to take off your rose tinted glasses. I've listened to the union calls, and have herd their core message that this in no way us what they were looking for. And is the main reason it is being voted on by the pilot group. Aswell, I have e listened to their scepulations about how this wont effect out next contract. And I am smart enough to see that as just that, speculations. Just as I cannot say what WILL happen neither can they. The company came to the pilot group with this deal, I have no idea why , considering the current state of things; youd think they wont come back to the table. If they left things the way they are currently, it would be a real shit show by next contract. Which puts the ball square in our court.. but hey, if you think 10K ( minus deductions) so like 7 k is worth it. Go ahead vote yes, I honestly believe the pilots in our community are too smart and too angry to even waste a yes vote on 7 K take home..

[averageatbest]

As this is avcanada, yes, vent my thoughts I will. I believe that is the function of this platform. Emotional, you bet. It's been a hard few years and it will continue to be hard as long as guys like you refuse to take off your rose tinted glasses. I've listened to the union calls, and have herd their core message that this in no way us what they were looking for. And is the main reason it is being voted on by the pilot group. Aswell, I have e listened to their scepulations about how this wont effect out next contract. And I am smart enough to see that as just that, speculations. Just as I cannot say what WILL happen neither can they. The company came to the pilot group with this deal, I have no idea why , considering the current state of things; youd think they wont come back to the table. If they left things the way they are currently, it would be a real shit show by next contract. Which puts the ball square in our court.. but hey, if you think 10K ( minus deductions) so like 7 k is worth it. Go ahead vote yes, I honestly believe the pilots in our community are too smart and too angry to even waste a yes vote on 7 K take home..

What it sounds like you are saying is that you do not trust the MEC or Negotiating Committee. While I do not share the same feeling, I do not think any less of you for it.

As you have already listened and participated in the calls, I hold no negative feelings about you voting for what you first believe is best for yourself and second what is better for the Encore pilot group.

Best of luck and smooth tailwinds.

[cdnavater]

[quote=averageatbest post_id=<a href="tel:1231251">1231251</a> time=<a href="tel:1672347452">1672347452</a> user_id=93093]
[quote=Tolip post_id=<a href="tel:1231218">1231218</a> time=<a href="tel:1672333399">1672333399</a> user_id=67495]
Wow, the level of cool aid drinkers in these group is crazy.. free money, it's free money, the company wont renegotiate, we give up nothing, this wont solve any problems, we can just negotiate for other stuff later NBD... have any of you that are echoing these statements ever actually worked in the canadian aviation sector?? We have been getting screwed on the table, couch and on the floor of the bathroom since the conception of enore, meanwhile receiving the lowest most subpar airline pay in almost the ENTIRE world, the company has chipped away almost every worth while thing we have ever had going for us in this company, one list, ACM, multi base, career progression... and now when leverage is finally finally in our hands you want to POTENTIALLY put that at risk for 10k???.... when contract negotiations start in less then a year.. that's nuts. How do you not see that the company is desperate right now? Tbey came to us. There has not been a meaningful raise in the entire history of encore, and you think they are offering this out of the goodness of their hearts? This was negotiated in a month, after 3 meetings.. why would you think they would not have the ability to renegotiate?? That's nuts... we will never improve our WAWCON with this immediate "vote yes" mentality. I get that pilots are suffering at enore aswell as every other airline in Canada. But this offer is a steak, it's a meal.. and we will feel hungry again after a day.. let's not vote yes to .15% of what we need. We need to hold out for the full package.

Thank you for your contribution. I understand that your opinion is biased by emotion and rightfully so. Now that you have been able to vent, I suggest that you do the following.

1. Take a break from work related tasks including thinking about MOAs, LOAs, LOUs, and CB2. Watch a movie, take a walk, or eat a tub of ice cream
2. Watch the three union calls. Your concerns were addressed in them and I believe that you will gain a lot of insight from them.
3. Take another break
4. Participate in the final call on January 4. Ask your MEC and negotiating committee directly about your concerns. They will be able to tell you how it is without the broken telephone information you're finding on the line and in the chat groups.

You can find the videos of the pilot calls in the Google Drive under WEN Pilot Documents -> MEC Q&A Webinars -> December 2022

If you cannot find the Drive, check the ALPA or WEN Facebook groups or look at your MEC FastRead

As this is avcanada, yes, vent my thoughts I will. I believe that is the function of this platform. Emotional, you bet. It's been a hard few years and it will continue to be hard as long as guys like you refuse to take off your rose tinted glasses. I've listened to the union calls, and have herd their core message that this in no way us what they were looking for. And is the main reason it is being voted on by the pilot group. Aswell, I have e listened to their scepulations about how this wont effect out next contract. And I am smart enough to see that as just that, speculations. Just as I cannot say what WILL happen neither can they. The company came to the pilot group with this deal, I have no idea why , considering the current state of things; youd think they wont come back to the table. If they left things the way they are currently, it would be a real shit show by next contract. Which puts the ball square in our court.. but hey, if you think 10K ( minus deductions) so like 7 k is worth it. Go ahead vote yes, I honestly believe the pilots in our community are too smart and too angry to even waste a yes vote on 7 K take home..

[/quote][/quote]
Tolip,
I can be as militant as the next guy, more so at times. Nothing would give me more pleasure than sticking to any airline management, I loath those people. They get rich by picking our pockets and sleep very soundly after doing it, phycho’s.
That being said, do not underestimate how stubborn they can be, especially in the WJ group, they will burn it to the ground before giving in to stubborn pilots.
Most of the flying you do was done by mainline before and could be done again, also I’m not sure if you have any scope protection for someone else doing your current flying. If they just simply let pilots quit and reduce the flying to a point where there’s only a skeleton crew left, there’s no protection guaranteeing you could follow that work or not that it would matter at that point.
Turning down a raise, hoping for a bigger raise is a pretty bold bluff that may not pan out for you. Maybe it will but ask any pre 2010 Jazz pilot how that worked out for us, still trying to get back up from that.
This is a raise with no strings attached and may not have the effect they are hoping for and will be back to the table if it doesn’t but I wouldn’t bank on plan B being more money, it could be a worse outcome.

[GetAGripen]

I'd sure like to able to afford an apartment when I start.