Crash report finally released

[Driving Rain]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006 ... 15-cp.html

WINDSOR, Ont. (CP) - A plane that plunged into the icy waters of Lake Erie off Pelee Island killing 10 was significantly overloaded and hindered by ice, the Transportation Safety Board said in a final report that also criticized the pilot.

The 62-page report into Georgian Express Flight 126 says the Cessna aircraft was overburdened by at least 15 per cent and its surfaces were laden with ice when it crashed two years ago.

In fact, two passengers pointed out ice on the wing to pilot Wayne Price, but he proceeded with the flight anyway, said the report, released Tuesday.

"The pilot made a number of decisions that increased the risk to the safe operation of the flight," said the board, adding that there was no indication the pilot was a risk-taker.

"The pilot's assessment of risk was likely degraded by some combination of stress and fatigue."

The plane crashed Jan. 17, 2004, killing eight Ontario hunters, Price and his L.A.-based girlfriend.

The initial investigation found that the plane was overweight by 576 kilograms.

When passengers boarded the plane they brought its gross weight to approximately 4,454 kilograms - roughly 13 per cent over the Cessna's maximum capacity in icy conditions.

The Cessna's aircraft manual recommends it weigh no more than 3,878 kilograms when flying into icy weather.

The average passenger weight also appeared to significantly exceed federal standards.

On Flight 126, investigators found the average weight was 240 pounds.

But the average permitted weight of male passengers was 188 pounds, including clothes but excluding carry-on luggage, and 141 pounds for women.

Relatives of the victims have filed several multimillion-dollar lawsuits targeting the pilot, airline and Township of Pelee.

Two civil suits allege that Price, Georgian Express Ltd., and the township did not take steps to ensure the craft wasn't overweight or coated with ice.

None of the allegations have been proven in court.

Larry Janik, 48, of Kingsville, Ont.; Ronald Spencler, 53, and Walter Sadowski, 48, of Windsor, Ont.; and brothers Tom Reeve, 49 and Ted Reeve, 53, of Chatham, Ont., were among eight area hunters and several dogs that piled into the plane on their way back from a pheasant-shooting trip.

Their relatives filed a joint $55.4-million lawsuit last year naming Georgian Express, the township, Price's estate and the Owen Sound Transportation Co., which operates the Pelee Island Transportation Service on behalf of Ontario's Transportation Ministry.

Another $1.25-million suit was launched last year by the widow and three children of Fred Freitas, 38, of Kingsville, Ont.

The Freitases' suit names Georgian Express, the township, Price's estate and the Cessna Aircraft Company, which built the plane.

The family of another victim, Bob Brisco, 46, of Chatham, Ont., filed a $6-million lawsuit in January naming 11 defendants, including Georgian Express.

Also killed in the crash was hunter Jim Allen, 51, of Mitchell's Bay, Ont., and Price's fiancee, Jamie Levine, 28.

The Transportation Safety Board is an independent agency that investigates crashes with the goal of improving transportation safety.

It does not assign fault or determine civil or criminal liability.

[Juggs]

People generally sue whoever has the deepest pockets regardless of whether they are directly responsible for the final outcome.

I believe this tactic does not work as well in Canada as it does in the US, however, many times that goal of a lawsuit is an out of court settlement for an undisclosed sum of money.

[grimey]

What Juggs said. Typically, everyone even remotely involved with the incident will be named in the initial lawsuit, most of them won't have to pay anything more than legal fees (if that).

[CID]

This is a tough one. Although the lawsuit that includes the "township" sounds frivilous on the surface, perhaps we aren't aware of agreements or arrangements between the town and the airport and the other entities involved and how they may carry liability.

For example, if the airstrip is a municipal airstrip, it may in fact belong to the township therefore introducing the possibility of liability.

Did the lack of services or some other factor lead to a situation where the operation of the airport was a contributing factor? You'll never know unless you ask and often those questions will never be asked unless you litigate.

I wonder what side of the argument the "blame TC for SB's crash" group will lie on.

[oldtimer]

In a lawsuit I was involved in, the owner of the property where the shortcoming took place has to be found at least 10% culpable before he/she/the corporation can be found liable and therefore pulls the whole train. In my case, some person or persons unknown spilled a slippery substance on a stairwell. Experts found the lighting to be below standard and therefore the landlord was held accountable. I won and everyone got a rent increase after that.

[flyinhigh]

Ok this bugs the hell outta me, somebody gets on a plane that has a problem and now the whole flippin country wants to sue, its patetic what we as humans have come to, to get any amount of money form anyone possilbe.
In this case the pilot screwed up, thats it, how can you blame the town, if there was no de-icing equipment than don't go.

How do you think that everyday traveling public would feel if we made them sign a waiver stating that if anything happens in this aircraft that they on board at there own risk and are taking such risks knowing full well they ain't getting a dime. Have them sign it before the engine turns. I bet someone would try to sue for that.

[Radial]

cpl_atc, I don't want to get into a pissing match, but I believe many of us on here have made the mistake of taking off overloaded more than once, especially from places with no scales. Also, from what I know about this case the pilot did not take off coated in ice, rather he ran into it after take off. As well we'll never know all the pressures he was under to complete the flight. I for one, will not criticize because I wasn't there and it all seems so cut and dried when you read the synopsis after the fact.

[CD]

Aviation Investigation Report
Loss of Control
Georgian Express Ltd.
Cessna 208B Caravan C-FAGA
Pelee Island, Ontario
17 January 2004

[cyyz]

In fact, two passengers pointed out ice on the wing to pilot Wayne Price, but he proceeded with the flight anyway, said the report, released Tuesday.

So, just out of curiosity, how the frig would the investigators know what the dead pax may or may not have said to the pilot?

Secondly,

The average passenger weight also appeared to significantly exceed federal standards.

I do hope that price's estate sues the airline and the fat farks families for letting them fly and only pay for the 1 seat!

[Inverted2]

Maybe the company should have had proper deicing at Pelee or cancelled the flight. It was freezing drizzle and snow that night, and I don't see why the flight should have even left windsor when they had no deice on the island.

[sakism]

So, just out of curiosity, how the frig would the investigators know what the dead pax may or may not have said to the pilot?

The aircraft landed at 1620. While on the ramp, two individuals voiced concern to the pilot that there was ice on the wing. Freezing precipitation was falling. The pilot was observed to visually check the leading edge of the wing; however, he did not voice any concern and proceeded with loading the passengers and cargo.

[.80@410]

I want to take a moment to say...

I flew with W.P, and still remember him and the times we all had up north.

From what I saw he was a good pilot, and never pushed things, or let the company push him.

So for all you out there who like to criticize, STFU. You don't know anything about the pilot, or what happened that day. Half the pilots on this board's greatest encounter with ice is on the OAT probe in flight school in the 172, now all of a sudden you're experts on how to fly a caravan in ice?

FU.

Aviation lost a good pilot, an ex Van City Cop, and a good guy all around.

Wayne, I hope you're in a better place now......

[squawk 7600]

.80@410,

Good on you! I also knew Wayne many years ago and you could not find a better guy. A great pilot that everyone enjoyed working with.

For all you "experts" out there, stop fucking speculating about something you know shit about, and go @#$! yourself. I'm sick of reading posts from the same dumb fucks who sit on their fat asses and post shit on here because they have nothing else going on in their dismal lives! If you think you know everything, then why the hell aren't you working for TC or the TSB? Jesus this forum is full of complete and utter crap.

Like .80@410 said, aviation not only lost a great pilot, it lost a great person.

Take care Wayne, you are sadly missed.

[Hickory Stick]

Sorry about your loss guys. Although I did not know Wayne, I lost a friend a few years ago at Wasaya who also perished in a Caravan. May both our brothers rest in peace.

I am an expert in what a C208 can and can't handle in ice. It does not take long to figure out that the "Van" is absolutely amazing in the line of work it does. It always brought me home, and I was in a few situations where I wondered how the hell I got myself into them.

Anyway, sometimes its just bad luck. No pilot I have ever met purposly puts his and his pax life in danger. It boils down to luck or lack thereof.

Cheers

[tripleseven]

"According to observers, the aircraft may have accumulated as much as 1/8 inch of ice from the freezing precipitation."

Is it just me, or does this seem like an awfully minute amount of ice? Anyone who says they have never taken off with 1/4 on the leading edge is lying, in my opinion. However, having said that, I guess it contributed to the overall outcome of the incident.

On another note, does anyone notice how when the accident is a high-profile one, that the TSB creates a rather 'large" accident report? I've seen other accident reports with similar outcomes that I don't feel received as much attention to detail.

[duplicate2]

On another note, does anyone notice how when the accident is a high-profile one, that the TSB creates a rather 'large" accident report? I've seen other accident reports with similar outcomes that I don't feel received as much attention to detail.

How many pax injuries/fatalities?

[The Other Kind]

Is it just me, or does this seem like an awfully minute amount of ice? Anyone who says they have never taken off with 1/4 on the leading edge is lying, in my opinion.

Agreed.

However, in-flight ice collects on the leading edge - freezing precip while parked collects everywhere. If this aircraft had 1/4" of ice on its lifting surfaces that would be significant, to say the least.

This flight should never have been dispatched to Pelee in those conditions and the pilot should have made call to cancel, even if dispatch/ops man failed to.

Everyone who knew him (I did not) agrees that he was a capable pilot. The fact that he did not cancel the flight speaks volumes about the company culture at Georgian at the time of this accident. How many people have seen their stickers showing a caravan with the slogan 'Come Fly In The Ice With Us"....

It is inexcusable that this flight was not cancelled by the Operations Manager/DFO before leaving Windsor.

[CID]

Ok this bugs the hell outta me, somebody gets on a plane that has a problem and now the whole flippin country wants to sue, its patetic what we as humans have come to, to get any amount of money form anyone possilbe.

I bet you'd feel differently if it was your family that died in the crash. Are you suggesting that when you pay for a ticket, there is no liability assumed by the operator? Sorry, but THAT bugs the hell out of me.

How do you think that everyday traveling public would feel if we made them sign a waiver stating that if anything happens in this aircraft that they on board at there own risk and are taking such risks knowing full well they ain't getting a dime. Have them sign it before the engine turns. I bet someone would try to sue for that.

I wouldn't step foot on your airplane if you were going to take my money and assume no responsibility for my safe carriage.

I don't think these are frivilous lawsuits. Its a case of having a reasonable expectation of arriving at your destination safely when you pay for a ticket.

[Flying Low]

I don't think these are frivilous lawsuits. Its a case of having a reasonable expectation of arriving at your destination safely when you pay for a ticket.

Agreed. The pilot and the company were responsible for the safe conduct of this flight. That didn't happen and they should be liable.

However, to sue Cessna and the airport...that is frivilous. Can you imagine the most extreme scenario as a result of this. A Cessna rep and airport rep looking over your shoulder to make sure you are doing your job before every flight. This is obviously not practical or economical and this sort of lawsuit lead to Cessna getting out of single engine piston production years ago.

This accident is defiantely operator error. I don't know the corporate culture at Georgian at the time so I don't know the pressure this gentleman was under.

Always remember, we, as pilots are the last line of defense that says, "No, we can't do this flight." It is our responsiblilty to make this decision.

“Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater degree than the sea it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect.”
Captain A. G. Lamplugh, British Air Corps

[tripleseven]

It's stupid to sue the airport and Cessna, that should be a no-brainer. However, when you go on a mission to sue someone, you sue everyone, because someone is gonna have some money to cough up.

Eg, you just take your car to get the brakes fixed, then you get in a crash and you run over a pedistrian. Well the ped's family laywer would sue you, your family, the brake company, brake instsaller, mechanic who installed the brakes, your car manufacturer, city responsible for streets, blah, blah blah. That is what a prof who taught me Business Law told me one time. It's just par for the course. I still think it's dumb though.

[cyyz]

However, to sue Cessna and the airport...that is frivilous.

Well atleast they're not suing the government, because I mean if the gov't didn't "force them" to go hunting they wouldn't have been there in the first place....

oh, and tc, for letting such a "horrible" company to operate like that...

LOL....

[Doc]

Did I see somebody partially blame the Township for not deicing the aircraft? WTF? The company should have deicing in place...sure, to a point....but if there is no deice? The whole thing rests on the sholders of the PIC! No way around that one! It matters not if deice is available or not....if it isn't...dont go! Would you go without gas, just because there isn't any? Of course not. That's really pretty simple. As for the law suits. I dont blame them....and I hope they get something out of it. Why? Because the paying public got fucked by the airline industry in this country. Okay, maybe not the whole industry, but the public has the right to expect to survive an easily avoidable accident, brought about by gross negligence displayed on that icy dark night. Dont blame the Caravan, blame the driver. A 737 wont fly covered in ice either! If indeed the ice on the aircraft was brought to the attention of the pilot, it's almost manslaughter.

[cyyz]

and I hope they get something out of it. Why?

Because the paying public got fucked by the airline industry in this country. Okay, maybe not the whole industry, but the public has the right to expect to survive an easily avoidable accident, brought about by gross negligence.

ROFL, those penny pinching flying pricks that killed the industry.. Maybe they should have chartered a LEAR if they wanted any assurances, but they were CHEAP. Screw anyone who wants $1 tickets and dies, they killed the industry, they can go kill themselves..

and to bad TC cost the company 10000s of dollars in paper work, maybe the company could have spent 50 on de-ice instead of crappy PPCs, Crappy Manuals and all that other crap TC dumps on them....

[RatherBeFlying]

He and the lady in the right seat had flown back from LAX the night before and had a maximum of 5.25 hours sleep before reporting for duty at 0445 EST -- that's 0145 LAX time. 12 hours later that day he had the accident.

You can be a good pilot -- when properly rested. Do we blame the operator for not locking up the pilot the night before to ensure he's properly rested?

Perhaps the flight from LAX was delayed -- if so, the wiser course is to book sick, or let them know the bad news from LAX.

The other lesson is that the 'van was able to handle the freezing precip in the air, but collected ice in critical places once parked.

You can't check the wing without a ladder, but there's no excuse for not running a hand over the elevator.

[Doc]

Lets not even begin to blame this on not getting a good night's sleep!
cyyz....Okay...must have missed your point.