Salary Question - IFR

Colin Edwards · Post by **Colin Edwards** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:32 am

Hello,

Could any IFR controllers send me a PM about realistic salary figures for the IFR side of things, including training? I'm not looking to make this information public. And how much are the higher paid controllers making?

I have heard different numbers from people who I don't think really know what's up, as they are not controllers, and would like to hear it directly from the source.

With love and respect to all ATC,

CE

polythene_pam · Post by **polythene_pam** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:56 pm

You'll find your answers at local5454.com

Basically, expect $3500 tuition, then 6-10 months unpaid training, possible delays (I'd plan for 14 months unpaid), then On the job training at $30 000/year for 8 - 16 months, then you'll be making a salary of around $80 000 plus OFP (bonuses) of 6 - 16k.

Work shifts are 8.5 hours, usually a 6 on, 4 off type thing (it's more complicated than that, but whatever)

But you'll get a lot of leave on top of that, plus sick days. An overtime shift basically pays about 700 bucks so if you can whip off just 4 or 5 a month (easy on a 6 on 4 off schedule), you'll be adding 30-50k to your annual paycheque!

Some of the senior guys with a lot of OT are grossing 160 - 210k a year. It's easy to break 100-120k your first year if you work a lot of OT.

average controller with decent ot will be netting bi-weekly cheques of $3k+ in the winter and $4-8k in the summer. I think.

Of course, I probably don't know anything more than you. Would a controller who actually knows what they're talking about please verify if I'm close or just perpetuating lies that somebody told me!?!?

Braun · Post by **Braun** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:56 pm

The pay is good and all but don't do it just for the money.

Colin Edwards · Post by **Colin Edwards** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:20 am

Thanks guys.

polythene pam, so you're NOT a controller? That's a lot of info. Or were you joking about not being one?

Alex, agreed. I've been around aviation for a while now and have a background and secondary education in this field (aviation).

One other question, for IFR controllers, how is the shiftwork? Are you always working different hours? After a number of years (seniority), are you able to try and only work days or evenings...something of that nature? Or will you always be working hours around the clock?

Thanks.

pokaroo · Post by **pokaroo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:44 am

poly pam you're numbers are pretty close. In toronto once you qualify your salary is a little over 95k a year. Depending on the specialty you go to there could be lots or little overtime available.

Work schedules are 17on-11off which is typically broken down into 6-4,6-4,5-3 or 6-3,6-3,5-5 or something similar.

Shift work isn't that bad, in toronto we voted to have not less than 10 hours between shifts as scheduled by the company and once per cycle we can go down to 8 hours between shifts at our own request. Switching shifts around depends on the specialty you're in and the people you work with. I know guys with 1 year in working nothing but evenings and others with 25 in that get screwed. For the most part though you can get what you want most of the time. We work mids in blocks of 5 or 6 in toronto for the most part. All regular shifts are 8 hours 28 mins.

Colin Edwards · Post by **Colin Edwards** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:22 pm

Pokaroo,

Thanks for the info. Maybe we'll meet one day at the ACC...

polythene_pam · Post by **polythene_pam** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:48 pm

[quote]polythene pam, so you're NOT a controller? That's a lot of info. Or were you joking about not being one? [//quote]

I'm not a controller, but I'm friends with several and I'm a good listener!

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:21 am

polythene_pam wrote:Some of the senior guys with a lot of OT are grossing 160 - 210k a year. It's easy to break 100-120k your first year if you work a lot of OT.

The only way I could foresee someone breaking the $150k-$160k mark would be a supervisor who practically lives at work. Anything beyond that is out of the question ($210k??? Not even close.). A controller who works a lot of overtime (i.e. frequent strings of 7 or 8 days on, one or two days off) can hit the $120k-$150k mark, depending on how many years they have in. However, it's a matter of how long you can keep that up before you burn out or snap.

We are very well paid for the job, but the upper end of your figures are out of whack, regardless of which site you work at.

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:35 am

Colin Edwards wrote:One other question, for IFR controllers, how is the shiftwork? Are you always working different hours? After a number of years (seniority), are you able to try and only work days or evenings...something of that nature? Or will you always be working hours around the clock?

'Round the clock. There is no change in distribution of shifts over your career, regardless of seniority.

Shift work has its pros and cons. If your friends and family are largely based around a Mon-Fri 9-5 schedule, the shift work can be a real pain in the ass at times. On the other hand, not having to get up at the same time every day also has its advantages.

The shifts can be screwy, and vary by site. A typical rotation in YWG will often include a 05:30 - 14:00 shift, then back ten hours later (i.e. that same day/night) for a 00:00 - 08:30 shift. The following night is 22:00 - 06:30 the next morning. That's not overtime, those are regular standard shifts.

Holiday time is generous, but being able to use it can be another story, especially during prime times of the year. Only a certain number of people allowed away at any given time can make it difficult to get the days off you want.

Some years the schedule is better than others. Last year I worked every long weekend between May and October, plus Xmas eve and New Year's Eve/Day. This year I have most of them off, although alternating like that from year to year is a fluke and not by design.

pokaroo · Post by **pokaroo** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:15 am

The only way I could foresee someone breaking the $150k-$160k mark would be a supervisor who practically lives at work. Anything beyond that is out of the question ($210k??? Not even close.). A controller who works a lot of overtime (i.e. frequent strings of 7 or 8 days on, one or two days off) can hit the $120k-$150k mark, depending on how many years they have in. However, it's a matter of how long you can keep that up before you burn out or snap.

We are very well paid for the job, but the upper end of your figures are out of whack, regardless of which site you work at.

ummmm....no

my third year in (last year) I made 130,000. This year I could easily break 150,000. I know a few people that broke 200,000 last year. Believe me it can be done!

As for the shifts you work... I would say 85-90 % of the shifts I work are the shifts I want. I bet you in the first two years I worked less than 10 day shifts and I know that in the last 6 months I have not worked a single mid. It all depends on the unit you are in and the people you work with.

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:46 am

pokaroo wrote:

The only way I could foresee someone breaking the $150k-$160k mark would be a supervisor who practically lives at work. Anything beyond that is out of the question ($210k??? Not even close.). A controller who works a lot of overtime (i.e. frequent strings of 7 or 8 days on, one or two days off) can hit the $120k-$150k mark, depending on how many years they have in. However, it's a matter of how long you can keep that up before you burn out or snap.

We are very well paid for the job, but the upper end of your figures are out of whack, regardless of which site you work at.
ummmm....no

my third year in (last year) I made 130,000. This year I could easily break 150,000. I know a few people that broke 200,000 last year. Believe me it can be done!

As for the shifts you work... I would say 85-90 % of the shifts I work are the shifts I want. I bet you in the first two years I worked less than 10 day shifts and I know that in the last 6 months I have not worked a single mid. It all depends on the unit you are in and the people you work with.

Where are you working?

pokaroo · Post by **pokaroo** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:18 am

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:56 am

pokaroo wrote:yyz

Ok. Even with the difference in OFP between YWG and YYZ ($7-$8k before the reclassification?), the only way I can see $200k being remotely acheivable (based on some rough calcs) would be for a supervisor at the top of the pay scale who works 9-1's constantly, leaving yourself with only 3 days off per month, year round? You're talking like $70-$80k in OT, unless you guys are working under a different collective agreement than us.

Even then, to think what your life must be like if you accept that much OT??

polythene_pam · Post by **polythene_pam** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:32 pm

What is an OT shift worth? (gross/net?)

I heard it's around 700 bucks net? is that true?

that would be.. what? 1100 gross? can't be!

pokaroo · Post by **pokaroo** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:23 pm

charlie I'm not trying to argue with you I agree working that much overtime is crazy. But there are guys out there that do it. I know people that have maxed out every 56 days period for as far back as they remember. Guys working double and triple shifts back when the rules were different. Most can't keep up doing this but some do.

Getting to 200 with out working every day off isn't impossible, watch a trainee or 2 at 8.50 an hour, extend your regular shifts to 12 hours, when you do come in on OT make it a 12 hour. Depending on how far away you live some guys get over $100 commuting allowance per OT it all adds up. If you really had a thing for breaking the 200 mark you could comp a bunch of OT from sept to dec and cash it out the next year (hopefully after april to get a raise on it).

lexx · Post by **lexx** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:41 am

Controller salaries are not a secret, are discussed here, and are certainly out in the public domain.

Just so everyone's on the same page, you can click here for salary info for Toronto http://www.yyzacc.ca/salary.htm

Colin Edwards · Post by **Colin Edwards** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:05 pm

Lexx,

Well sir, that definitely answers my initial question. The figures are up to year 2008. Is that where the current contract ends? Will there be new negotiations after that?

I suppose it doesn't matter all that much to me as I'm not a controller (yet, or at this time). Just curious I guess. But, it's not a need to know thing.

Thanks for the link.

lexx · Post by **lexx** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:15 pm

Colin,

The current contract will expire at the end of those posted tables. The last contracted raise starts April 2008, so I guess that would make the end of the current contract, late March 2009. We always seem to run for a bit without a contract as both sides posture, but yes, contracts are negotiated on completion.

The salaries are locked in certainly. I'm not absolutely sure about the ATC Premiums. There may be a mechanism to review the convoluted calculation used to determine them, and they are different for different units across the country. I'm not positive, and that link only covers Toronto's Premium anyway, which in all likelyhood won't change.

bigfssguy · Post by **bigfssguy** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:09 pm

Everyone is fairly well paid. I made 83K last year as an FSS in a remote site. I should make 90-100K next year with the raises from the new contract and new Northern living allowance. Heck my base salary is 55K as of april 1. Thats up from 36K when i started 4 years ago.

AlbertaBoy · Post by **AlbertaBoy** » Tue May 09, 2006 11:38 am

Hey, maybe I am a moron but I followed this link http://www.yyzacc.ca/salary.htm and I don't really understand what the Increments mean. I was also looking at the salary stuff on the CATCA site. Can someone explain what the increments are and what ATC-0 through ATC-7 mean? Thanks

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Tue May 09, 2006 10:39 pm

Towers are rated ATC-1 (low traffic) through ATC-6 (YYZ tower).

ACC's are all ATC-6.

You start at the first increment, and every 12 months you move up an increment until you reach the highest. Think of it as a raise every 12 months for your first 11 years on the job.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:17 am

Try Boston ARTCC, little to no tax, and starting wages around $160G

charlie_g · Post by **charlie_g** » Fri May 12, 2006 4:40 pm

av8rpei wrote:Try Boston ARTCC, little to no tax, and starting wages around $160G

From http://www.bls.gov. For the U.S:

"Air traffic controllers earn relatively high pay and have good benefits. Median annual earnings of air traffic controllers in May 2004 were $102,030. The middle 50 percent earned between $78,170 and $126,260. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $57,720, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $139,210.

The average annual salary, excluding overtime earnings, for air traffic controllers in the Federal Government—which employs 90 percent of the total—in nonsupervisory, supervisory, and managerial positions was $106,380 in May 2004. The Air Traffic Control pay system classifies each air traffic facility into one of eight levels with corresponding pay bands. Under this pay system, controllers’ salaries are determined by the rating of the facility. The higher the rating, the higher the controller’s salary and the greater the demand on the controller’s judgment, skill, and decision making ability."

pokaroo · Post by **pokaroo** » Sat May 13, 2006 8:01 am

charlie_g ,

Those numbers can be misleading because that stat lumps all VFR and IFR controllers together. I know US IFR controllers who topped 200 US easily, in some of the centres the OT is even worse than up here. Just remember though they work a 5-2

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:03 pm

Charlie, you need to get your facts from somewhere other than the internet, these are words from Boston ARTCC controllers themselves.

If you check Websites most will say Canadian ATC start at $65K /year, when in fact most IFR controllers in Canada will make close if not over $100K in their first year licensed.