Porter Airlines: First Officer - Dash 8

[Tolip]

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

The FOAG committee meets regularly to address issues regarding pay, flow and QOL. Saying “never” is very ignorant of you. Pay benchmarking is run at least once a year to keep competitive pay across the board for similar aircraft operations. We don’t need to wait for negotiations, it happens on its own, constantly.

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

[CaptDukeNukem]

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

The FOAG committee meets regularly to address issues regarding pay, flow and QOL. Saying “never” is very ignorant of you. Pay benchmarking is run at least once a year to keep competitive pay across the board for similar aircraft operations. We don’t need to wait for negotiations, it happens on its own, constantly.

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

[Tolip]

The FOAG committee meets regularly to address issues regarding pay, flow and QOL. Saying “never” is very ignorant of you. Pay benchmarking is run at least once a year to keep competitive pay across the board for similar aircraft operations. We don’t need to wait for negotiations, it happens on its own, constantly.

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

Right on, well I hope the company treats you guys well. Cus honisly with the rate you guys pilots size is growing, plus new bases, and equipment. I really think you guys need to unionize, these "benchmarking" things and yearly FOAG committees are all well and good when you are a smaller group. But the way you guys are growing and growing, I dont forsee these systems providing a fair and equitable deal for you guys in the long term. WJ will likely be striking in a next few months, and all said and done WILL walk away with a vastly superior contract. AC will be forced to immediately match or beat it.. I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

[averageatbest]

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

Encore did not significantly increase wages. The only thing that has changed is that everyone has gone up two scales and year three is the new starting point.

The "lump sum payment" was the company's way to give us money and take deductions off said monies without having it increase the match payments.

[8895]

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

What part of “annually” or “once a year” isn’t clicking for you? WJ 737 and AC 220 scales are both included in the E2 scale benchmark, which again, is benchmarked ANNUALLY, so if either of those scales go up, so does the E2. If Porter decided to not adjust its scales in a timely enough fashion then I’m sure there would be jet pilots leaving, which would be catastrophic for them, so I doubt that happens.

It’ll be interesting to see how their dash operation holds up through this expansion though, as apparently the attrition of Q skippers to big red is quite high and the last couple upgrade classes were cancelled. Not taking the initiative of leading Q operators for pay and instead benchmarking the scales that include the poverty likes of jazz and PAL I believe (in addition to your beloved encore of course) could come back to bite them.

Amazing how AC flat pay isn’t as much of a deterrent when you’re parents are still your landlord

[Timetoflyagain]

Right on, well I hope the company treats you guys well. Cus honisly with the rate you guys pilots size is growing, plus new bases, and equipment. I really think you guys need to unionize, these "benchmarking" things and yearly FOAG committees are all well and good when you are a smaller group.

…absolutely right! Porter pilots need to unionize right away! The senior drivers are missing out on brutalizing the newly born with flat pay, best fit and letting cabin crew make more than a new FO just so the 20 yr 777 driver can golf more, and who doesn’t like seeing one ALPA group fight with another over one list, then not one list, ok, but wait, no, maybe later if the planets align. Guaranteed Flow through? ...sure, we have it in a contract but have the strength of overcooked spaghetti to enforce it, and possibly the overall worst locked in contract in Canadian aviation history. Don’t like ALPA? Unifor and CUPE will gladly bring their expertise to you just like they did for several groups, before getting turfed. B Scale…why not if you give us a bonus today..Union approved!. All the “resources” mean nothing if the MEC plays favourites, doesn’t care or is incompetent. They’re all super efficient at taking their 2% however, some to hit the casino with, others running the cash down to DC. If Flair goes under, let’s see what ALPA does when the money stream runs dry from them….sorry..you’re no longer a member..but always remember that great contract we got you back in ‘22!

It’s said a company gets the union it deserves..fair enough…but also it’s then the pilots who get the union they deserve when they don’t hold it truly accountable and fair for all members.

[Tolip]

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

What part of “annually” or “once a year” isn’t clicking for you? WJ 737 and AC 220 scales are both included in the E2 scale benchmark, which again, is benchmarked ANNUALLY, so if either of those scales go up, so does the E2. If Porter decided to not adjust its scales in a timely enough fashion then I’m sure there would be jet pilots leaving, which would be catastrophic for them, so I doubt that happens.

It’ll be interesting to see how their dash operation holds up through this expansion though, as apparently the attrition of Q skippers to big red is quite high and the last couple upgrade classes were cancelled. Not taking the initiative of leading Q operators for pay and instead benchmarking the scales that include the poverty likes of jazz and PAL I believe (in addition to your beloved encore of course) could come back to bite them.

Amazing how AC flat pay isn’t as much of a deterrent when you’re parents are still your landlord

So if WJ gets a raise in a few months. Then poter will change their pay scalea and give a raise to their pilots next year? How close does poter have to match the new salaries? Is it just their discretion? Bit I guess we will see in a few months after WJ gets a new shiny contract and a big pay raise. My guess is porter pay scalea will not significantly change, if chage at all. At the end of the day poter has no union and no contract poter managment is not required to do anything. They will give raises as they see fit, just as they will honour senority from the Q to the emb as they see fit.

[Tolip]

Right on, well I hope the company treats you guys well. Cus honisly with the rate you guys pilots size is growing, plus new bases, and equipment. I really think you guys need to unionize, these "benchmarking" things and yearly FOAG committees are all well and good when you are a smaller group.

…absolutely right! Porter pilots need to unionize right away! The senior drivers are missing out on brutalizing the newly born with flat pay, best fit and letting cabin crew make more than a new FO just so the 20 yr 777 driver can golf more, and who doesn’t like seeing one ALPA group fight with another over one list, then not one list, ok, but wait, no, maybe later if the planets align. Guaranteed Flow through? ...sure, we have it in a contract but have the strength of overcooked spaghetti to enforce it, and possibly the overall worst locked in contract in Canadian aviation history. Don’t like ALPA? Unifor and CUPE will gladly bring their expertise to you just like they did for several groups, before getting turfed. B Scale…why not if you give us a bonus today..Union approved!. All the “resources” mean nothing if the MEC plays favourites, doesn’t care or is incompetent. They’re all super efficient at taking their 2% however, some to hit the casino with, others running the cash down to DC. If Flair goes under, let’s see what ALPA does when the money stream runs dry from them….sorry..you’re no longer a member..but always remember that great contract we got you back in ‘22!

It’s said a company gets the union it deserves..fair enough…but also it’s then the pilots who get the union they deserve when they don’t hold it truly accountable and fair for all members.

Well the way I am understanding this whole benchmark pay scales at porter is that.poter will only give a subpar match to the hard fought battles that are fought at other companies. Every raise that will come to the canadian aviation sector will only come though the blood sweat and tears of an organized union. The encore raise (our union got that for us. Flairs new contract (union). The much anticipated new WJ contract will be fought brutally by every WJ pilot on property... meanwhile then poter just copies and pastes that hard work and gives similar but lower wages for its pilots.. if not for the hard fought battlea that encore, flair, WJ, ,,AC are all fighting. Poter would never see a another "benchmark " pay adjustment.

[Timetoflyagain]

Well the way I am understanding this whole benchmark pay scales at porter is that.poter will only give a subpar match to the hard fought battles that are fought at other companies. Every raise that will come to the canadian aviation sector will only come though the blood sweat and tears of an organized union. The encore raise (our union got that for us. Flairs new contract (union). The much anticipated new WJ contract will be fought brutally by every WJ pilot on property... meanwhile then poter just copies and pastes that hard work and gives similar but lower wages for its pilots.. if not for the hard fought battlea that encore, flair, WJ, ,,AC are all fighting. Poter would never see an another "benchmark " pay adjustment.
[/quote]

…Porter is responding to the supply and demand market for pilots, comparing what everyone else is getting to stay competitive. Same thing with the fares they charge the passengers, what Ford prices a car at, what Timmies pays its workers in Fort Mc Money vs Windsor, and the price of apples in Iqaluit vs WhiteRock etc etc. My point is what unions have done and continue to do to some of their own members, to each other and if you think ALPA is to be congratulated for what it “fought” and won for you..WJE was already cancelling flights due no crews..they were leaving for greener pastures, parked over a dozen tails and management either ponied up the cash to keep and attract pilots or list the rest of the fleet for sale. ….but if it makes you feel better for your 2% then so be it.

[vanislepilot]

Don't compare Porter to Encore.

Encore treats it's pilots like shit. Sure, the current pay is more than Porter, but if you don't want to commute and you want to live in the Golden Horseshoe, Encore is not the right choice for you.

First, the last YYZ Encore hire was mid-2022.

Second, the last YYZ Encore flight is April 30, 2023.

Third, Onex has taken all that WestJet once was and sucked the life and soul out of it.

Yes, no pilot should join encore thinking they are going g to work in YYZ ( the base is closing, that is mo secret). And honestly EVERY COMPANY treats their pilots like shit, porter is NO different. They have no contract no union and no protections. Tbey are expanding at a hugely massive rate, and the pilots senority is not being respected. The pay scales on their Q is totally unacceptable. You wont have a flyable schedule for atleast to years. And as for now they dont really have any solidified flow program from the Q to the EMB. They are hiring OTS and bypassing senior Q pilots... dirty business..

Jesus you’re out of touch. You likely wont have more than a month reserve on a Porter Q, there is a 2 year fleet freeze (aside from upgrade) then its whatever you can bid. Take home you’d make more as a Porter Q FO than a Westjet FO under current payscales and deductions.

[CaptDukeNukem]

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

What part of “annually” or “once a year” isn’t clicking for you? WJ 737 and AC 220 scales are both included in the E2 scale benchmark, which again, is benchmarked ANNUALLY, so if either of those scales go up, so does the E2. If Porter decided to not adjust its scales in a timely enough fashion then I’m sure there would be jet pilots leaving, which would be catastrophic for them, so I doubt that happens.

It’ll be interesting to see how their dash operation holds up through this expansion though, as apparently the attrition of Q skippers to big red is quite high and the last couple upgrade classes were cancelled. Not taking the initiative of leading Q operators for pay and instead benchmarking the scales that include the poverty likes of jazz and PAL I believe (in addition to your beloved encore of course) could come back to bite them.

Amazing how AC flat pay isn’t as much of a deterrent when you’re parents are still your landlord

Agreed. Easy to take on 4 years of crap pay when you’ve always been paid crap.

While the e2 scales are decent at the moment, I do think porter should jack up the Q4 rates to the highest in the country. Not benchmark it, but lead the scales. This will attract and secure lower time pilots to develop their experience and throw them into a jet after a couple years. Bums in seats is what airlines need right now, and those often go to the highest bidder.

[schnitzel2k3]

I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

What part of “annually” or “once a year” isn’t clicking for you? WJ 737 and AC 220 scales are both included in the E2 scale benchmark, which again, is benchmarked ANNUALLY, so if either of those scales go up, so does the E2. If Porter decided to not adjust its scales in a timely enough fashion then I’m sure there would be jet pilots leaving, which would be catastrophic for them, so I doubt that happens.

It’ll be interesting to see how their dash operation holds up through this expansion though, as apparently the attrition of Q skippers to big red is quite high and the last couple upgrade classes were cancelled. Not taking the initiative of leading Q operators for pay and instead benchmarking the scales that include the poverty likes of jazz and PAL I believe (in addition to your beloved encore of course) could come back to bite them.

Amazing how AC flat pay isn’t as much of a deterrent when you’re parents are still your landlord

Agreed. Easy to take on 4 years of crap pay when you’ve always been paid crap.

While the e2 scales are decent at the moment, I do think porter should jack up the Q4 rates to the highest in the country. Not benchmark it, but lead the scales. This will attract and secure lower time pilots to develop their experience and throw them into a jet after a couple years. Bums in seats is what airlines need right now, and those often go to the highest bidder.

What would be a reasonable salary to have both the FOs and Captains start at? Would an increase be enough to keep them in their seats or will attrition happen regardless due to industry growth?

Dash is going to very soon become a training ground for the E2s. Low time pilots filter through the Dash to jump onto the international jet.

[braaap Braap]

Well the way I am understanding this whole benchmark pay scales at porter is that.poter will only give a subpar match to the hard fought battles that are fought at other companies. Every raise that will come to the canadian aviation sector will only come though the blood sweat and tears of an organized union. The encore raise (our union got that for us. Flairs new contract (union). The much anticipated new WJ contract will be fought brutally by every WJ pilot on property... meanwhile then poter just copies and pastes that hard work and gives similar but lower wages for its pilots.. if not for the hard fought battlea that encore, flair, WJ, ,,AC are all fighting. Poter would never see a another "benchmark " pay adjustment.

Dramatic much? It's the same $%&! different colour. Stop talking like you've been bestowed with some great honour. Porter is the latest to help lift the industry up. You vote with your vote towards a CBA. Porter pilots vote with their feet. The whole thing is governed by the rules of supply and demand. "blood sweat and tears" that's the funniest thing I've read this week. Everyone needs to work together to improve it as a whole. Stop pointing fingers because the fingers can get pointed right back.

[PRM1]

What part of “annually” or “once a year” isn’t clicking for you? WJ 737 and AC 220 scales are both included in the E2 scale benchmark, which again, is benchmarked ANNUALLY, so if either of those scales go up, so does the E2. If Porter decided to not adjust its scales in a timely enough fashion then I’m sure there would be jet pilots leaving, which would be catastrophic for them, so I doubt that happens.

It’ll be interesting to see how their dash operation holds up through this expansion though, as apparently the attrition of Q skippers to big red is quite high and the last couple upgrade classes were cancelled. Not taking the initiative of leading Q operators for pay and instead benchmarking the scales that include the poverty likes of jazz and PAL I believe (in addition to your beloved encore of course) could come back to bite them.

Amazing how AC flat pay isn’t as much of a deterrent when you’re parents are still your landlord

Agreed. Easy to take on 4 years of crap pay when you’ve always been paid crap.

While the e2 scales are decent at the moment, I do think porter should jack up the Q4 rates to the highest in the country. Not benchmark it, but lead the scales. This will attract and secure lower time pilots to develop their experience and throw them into a jet after a couple years. Bums in seats is what airlines need right now, and those often go to the highest bidder.

What would be a reasonable salary to have both the FOs and Captains start at? Would an increase be enough to keep them in their seats or will attrition happen regardless due to industry growth?

Dash is going to very soon become a training ground for the E2s. Low time pilots filter through the Dash to jump onto the international jet.

Hot take. All FOs at Porter should be on the same payscale.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Agreed. Easy to take on 4 years of crap pay when you’ve always been paid crap.

While the e2 scales are decent at the moment, I do think porter should jack up the Q4 rates to the highest in the country. Not benchmark it, but lead the scales. This will attract and secure lower time pilots to develop their experience and throw them into a jet after a couple years. Bums in seats is what airlines need right now, and those often go to the highest bidder.

What would be a reasonable salary to have both the FOs and Captains start at? Would an increase be enough to keep them in their seats or will attrition happen regardless due to industry growth?

Dash is going to very soon become a training ground for the E2s. Low time pilots filter through the Dash to jump onto the international jet.

Hot take. All FOs at Porter should be on the same payscale.

Yes. I’m with PRM. FOs should be same scale for sure. Captains on Q should probably be closer to $110 per hour to start. And I’ll put an asterisk on this….. that’s if porter wants to lead the way in Q4 pay and build some kind of flow to the jet. Theres’s some 703 operators in Manitoba paying up to $170k a year for 2 weeks on 2 weeks off.

[C-GGGQ]

I agree that sounds like a completely reasonable/ achievable goal for the FOAG committee in upcoming meetings. FO’s are not necessarily of wildly different experience levels between the two and the Q captains shouldn’t start the same as a PC12 captain with only 1000-1200 hrs these days.

[flyinhigh]

Well the way I am understanding this whole benchmark pay scales at porter is that.poter will only give a subpar match to the hard fought battles that are fought at other companies. Every raise that will come to the canadian aviation sector will only come though the blood sweat and tears of an organized union. The encore raise (our union got that for us. Flairs new contract (union). The much anticipated new WJ contract will be fought brutally by every WJ pilot on property... meanwhile then poter just copies and pastes that hard work and gives similar but lower wages for its pilots.. if not for the hard fought battlea that encore, flair, WJ, ,,AC are all fighting. Poter would never see an another "benchmark " pay adjustment.

I am legitimately surprised there is someone from Encore who is still drinking the koolaid. There is not one person here who does not understand how the WJ payscale works, so trying to educate people about how amazing things are there compared to others is a waste of time.

I was at Encore myself, and got out as the company was in shambles and has gotten worse since. Is the job good, yes but it’s just like Jazz, Porter, etc. the behind the scenes, morale, etc have tanked and you know it.

Also, to think the new WJ CBA is going to be light years better than it was is not accurate which shows you don’t know how these things work. I really do hope it works out, but in the end WJ pilots and the company will each get abit of what each other wants (I.e, swoop work rules to the company versus YOS for pilots in round 1).

[BlackHawkOne]

Do Porter actually accept application for other base than YTZ on the Q, I've only found YTZ in the career section, or it's a general job list for all of the bases ?

Thanks guys

[8895]

Do Porter actually accept application for other base than YTZ on the Q, I've only found YTZ in the career section, or it's a general job list for all of the bases ?

Thanks guys

Believe there’s room at every base right now, just know that you’ll be on reserve MUCH longer at any of the out bases, especially YHZ and YQT.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Do Porter actually accept application for other base than YTZ on the Q, I've only found YTZ in the career section, or it's a general job list for all of the bases ?

Thanks guys

Good question. I believe right now is only YTZ. I know YHZ is fairly senior. I just looked at seniority list and the other bases are considerably smaller than YTZ for obvious reasons. However, the most junior FO at those bases isn’t too far off new hire seniority numbers.

This would be a great question to ask during an interview or let your interviewers know that very interested in a particular base.

If they offer you a job, you can always defer it for a while if you’re not ready. Also, don’t forget, there’s only one number that matters, and that’s seniority.