New Hiring Minimums

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truedude
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by truedude »

A recession is not at all guaranteed, and many beleive it will be shallow.

And we need to stop comparing ourselves to Air Canada. Their flat pay is their problem to solve, not ours. Jazz needs to pay more to survive, period. AC has big shiny airplanes that attracts pilots willing to take crap pay for an opportunity to one day fly them. Jazz can pay more for first year F/Os than Air Canada, no where is it written they can't. The attitude we can't possibly pay more for first year pilots than AC needs to be dropped. This sort of attitude is what causes us to undervalue our profession.

And the 80 tails is a minimum, AC has never operated Jazz at the minimum tails required. And that 80 tails was also so they could start up a new CPA company. But good luck finding pilots.
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kiaszceski
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by kiaszceski »

truedude wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:58 am The attitude we can't possibly pay more for first year pilots than AC needs to be dropped. This sort of attitude is what causes us to undervalue our profession.
This is reality. We're bonded with the CPA. How much would cost Jazz to pay more the pilots ? Chorus Net income was $22 millions last year.
There is no way Jazz can raise the pay. The ticket price are AC's one, Jazz can't increase the price. AC can, hence AC's choice to shrink Jazz down.

I truely wish Jazz could improve the wawcon to 66k/100k. This seems to be a fair salary but the money has to come from AC in a way or another.
I'm sure 200% AC knows how much they needto increase the ticket price to increase the pilots pay by 10,20 and 30%.
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truedude
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by truedude »

I am sure they know it too, and will do what they can to try and find any other solution. It won't work. And as they give up market share, they allow companies like Flair to keep expanding and gain a foothold, which will cost more in the long run. They ignored Westjet in the west, and look how that turned out.

Not to mention Chorus needs to evaluate what they stand to lose on leasing contracts if AC shrink the CPA. Chorus found 45 million for share buybacks, perhaps that money could be better spent.
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Loon-A-Tic
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by Loon-A-Tic »

The reality is that Jazz suckles at the teat of the Mothership. :roll:
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NTPilot
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by NTPilot »

kiaszceski wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:36 am
truedude wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:13 am
kiaszceski wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 9:53 am

4-5 years capt and FO should have already gone to mainline if they wanted to.
And most do... which is why we are so short captains. That, or they are going to other places. Not everyone wants to be at AC. To keep Jazz functional, they need a blend of turn at the bottom, and some interested in staying for the long haul. But they need to pay to attract new people and keep people long term.

Captains should start at $100 per credit hour, and top out at $200 in 16 years.

And maybe have anyone with an ATPL start at year 4 or 5 on the F/O scale, along with more money for training pilots and LTC pilots, particularly if they will be teaching people to fly.

And there needs to be a clear path forward to AC. Perhaps reserved seniority numbers, along with pay guarantees up to a certain year.
Never gonna happen.
Do you think AC will pay Jazz FO 60k while their own FOs start below those wages?

Jazz is going to have a pay raise once AC removes the flat pay.
But realistically they have to get down to 80 tails so they still need people to leave for AC, then the recession will hit and we're all gonna get screwed.
If they don’t then that’s the problem
Encore already raised the salary to almost 60k for first year FO as of January 10th.
Here is the pay scale I found from another forum,
So now first year FO makes more than The first year fO jazz and CA,
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twa22
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by twa22 »

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading... If what is being said is even remotely true, this has to be the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time... And there have been some sad things posted here, but by far this is the worst...
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truedude
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by truedude »

twa22 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:50 am I honestly can't believe what I'm reading... If what is being said is even remotely true, this has to be the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time... And there have been some sad things posted here, but by far this is the worst...
Which parts?
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twa22
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by twa22 »

truedude wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:11 pm
twa22 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:50 am I honestly can't believe what I'm reading... If what is being said is even remotely true, this has to be the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time... And there have been some sad things posted here, but by far this is the worst...
Which parts?
The echoing sentiment that they are willing (or are inept), to go to the farthest extent to not give a pay raise, even if that means driving the operations into the ground
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truedude
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by truedude »

Oh yeah, it is weird. It is like we are in some bizzare pissing match with someone at AC, who is prepared to sacrifice market share just to give us the finger on pay.

You can't convince me it is going to cost less to screw us on pay and have the resulting market share loss along with operational stability going to crap, than cough up a couple dollars for pay and have restrain market share and have a stable operation.
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rudder
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by rudder »

truedude wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 10:13 am
Captains should start at $100 per credit hour, and top out at $200 in 16 years.

And maybe have anyone with an ATPL start at year 4 or 5 on the F/O scale, along with more money for training pilots and LTC pilots, particularly if they will be teaching people to fly.

And there needs to be a clear path forward to AC. Perhaps reserved seniority numbers, along with pay guarantees up to a certain year.
Bingo. Won’t happen. But still - Bingo.
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twa22
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by twa22 »

truedude wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:02 pm Oh yeah, it is weird. It is like we are in some bizzare pissing match with someone at AC, who is prepared to sacrifice market share just to give us the finger on pay.

You can't convince me it is going to cost less to screw us on pay and have the resulting market share loss along with operational stability going to crap, than cough up a couple dollars for pay and have restrain market share and have a stable operation.
I can't say I know any example off the top of my head on a large scale, but what I can say in my personal experience, the saying "you get what you pay for" almost never fails... guess this is brewing into one of those situations by the sounds of it. Sad, really sad...
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rudder
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by rudder »

clrdleftbase wrote: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:46 pm Looks like Jazz just dropped the minimum hiring requirement. The new posting says 500 hours TT with no mention of multi time required. Interesting times ahead :rolleyes:
Hiring low time pilots at Jazz simply exacerbates the shortfall of upgradeable pilots to fill the void created by departing CA.

It is not a solution. Paying enough to attract experienced pilots is a solution.
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Rowdy
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by Rowdy »

Rudder has it nailed.

Anyone with experience to be a CA at Jazz, has better options with Flair, Lynx, WJ, Sunwing, AT and AC mainline. Why saddle yourself with a shitty paying FO spot in YYZ? Even initial captain pay is abysmal.

We need 1800-2000hr pilots who can upgrade in under a year. Even then, we are already behind the curve. The only fix for AC/CHR's problem is money. Don't know why they are so loathe to increase pay...

Solution? cut the first four years off the pay scale and throw em in the trash. Slide everyone up. Add 30% for the inflation thats happened in the last 3 years and then move min credit to 5.0 so we go back to working 15-16 days a month instead of 18.. making us burnt out and unavailable for OT. Add a couple perks in there and I'm sure the group would be happy.

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.
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cdnavater
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by cdnavater »

Rowdy wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:56 pm Rudder has it nailed.

Anyone with experience to be a CA at Jazz, has better options with Flair, Lynx, WJ, Sunwing, AT and AC mainline. Why saddle yourself with a shitty paying FO spot in YYZ? Even initial captain pay is abysmal.

We need 1800-2000hr pilots who can upgrade in under a year. Even then, we are already behind the curve. The only fix for AC/CHR's problem is money. Don't know why they are so loathe to increase pay...

Solution? cut the first four years off the pay scale and throw em in the trash. Slide everyone up. Add 30% for the inflation thats happened in the last 3 years and then move min credit to 5.0 so we go back to working 15-16 days a month instead of 18.. making us burnt out and unavailable for OT. Add a couple perks in there and I'm sure the group would be happy.

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.
Vote for Rowdy!
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PilotZum
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by PilotZum »

Rowdy wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 3:56 pm Rudder has it nailed.

Anyone with experience to be a CA at Jazz, has better options with Flair, Lynx, WJ, Sunwing, AT and AC mainline. Why saddle yourself with a shitty paying FO spot in YYZ? Even initial captain pay is abysmal.

We need 1800-2000hr pilots who can upgrade in under a year. Even then, we are already behind the curve. The only fix for AC/CHR's problem is money. Don't know why they are so loathe to increase pay...

Solution? cut the first four years off the pay scale and throw em in the trash. Slide everyone up. Add 30% for the inflation thats happened in the last 3 years and then move min credit to 5.0 so we go back to working 15-16 days a month instead of 18.. making us burnt out and unavailable for OT. Add a couple perks in there and I'm sure the group would be happy.

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.
AC needs to get back to pre-bankruptcy wages+inflation. That's it.
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BeetleClock27
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by BeetleClock27 »

Has anyone who applied at the beginning of the year heard back yet?
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truedude
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by truedude »

BeetleClock27 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:18 pm Has anyone who applied at the beginning of the year heard back yet?
Why would you want to go to Jazz. Lowest paid 705 starting pay in Canada. Air Canada not taking the required 60%.

People are leaving left right and center, some not even finishing ground school.

Aim higher!
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Calinrobandfistyou
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by Calinrobandfistyou »

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.
10-15%?, maybe as a temporary MOA to help them through the next year, but come full blow negotiations, more like 40-60%
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truedude
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by truedude »

Calinrobandfistyou wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:50 am
How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.
10-15%?, maybe as a temporary MOA to help them through the next year, but come full blow negotiations, more like 40-60%
They know what they need to fix it. They can start negotiating early. We hand out no more life boats. We give them nothing. For 40 years they have driven our wages down, bullied us, and used a pilot surplus to force us into accepting substandard wages. It is time to take it all back and then some.

We should accept nothing less than what our American counterparts are making on a dollar for dollar bases. Which will still put us behind when currency conversion and cost of living is applied.

But we are dealing with some really stubborn management that seem to prefer driving off a cliff. We just need to make sure they know we are prepared to go over with them before accepting a dollar less than we are worth.
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Rowdy
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Re: New Hiring Minimums

Post by Rowdy »

Someone likened it to a game of chicken.

AC management is the big old angry Moose, who is so used to being the one to win and bulldoze..

Unfortunately the industry and pilot groups are actually a speeding freight train.

Watch as more wild, bizarre and foolish tactics are used to manipulate the situation and the employee groups.
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