Airline Upgrades

Got a hot employment or interview tip to help a fellow aviator find a job or looking for a little job advice place your posting here.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

wing'd
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:29 am

Airline Upgrades

Post by wing'd »

Hey all,

Quick question for you guys who are already in 705s

When it comes to upgrades, per example jazz,porter, encore etc..

Are people upgraded based on their exp : Pic / Turbine time

Or is it mostly because of seniority? I keep hearing that upgrades are 2 years for some 1 for some

As an example, I’m a right seater in a 703. ( got all my pic and then some instructing ) is it worth going left on a 703 machine ? Or move straight to airlines and when Atpl hours are done + 2-3 years have an upgrade ? ( if ultimate goal is airlines )


Upgrades seems confusing in the 705 world for someone who isn’t in it


Thank you guys so much!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
flying4dollars
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1289
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:56 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by flying4dollars »

wing'd wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:22 pm Hey all,

Quick question for you guys who are already in 705s

When it comes to upgrades, per example jazz,porter, encore etc..

Are people upgraded based on their exp : Pic / Turbine time

Or is it mostly because of seniority? I keep hearing that upgrades are 2 years for some 1 for some

As an example, I’m a right seater in a 703. ( got all my pic and then some instructing ) is it worth going left on a 703 machine ? Or move straight to airlines and when Atpl hours are done + 2-3 years have an upgrade ? ( if ultimate goal is airlines )


Upgrades seems confusing in the 705 world for someone who isn’t in it


Thank you guys so much!!
AC and WJ are seniority based, everyone else has an upgrade matrix that varies per company. PIC is very important in your growth as a pilot. Not so say it is necessary, but it will make your first 705 turboprop/jet command that much easier if you come in with PIC time and it just generally makes you a better pilot with respect to decision making and critical thinking.
---------- ADS -----------
 
GooseDriver
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:15 pm

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by GooseDriver »

Seniority is King.

PIC can be helpful if you are trying to qualify for a DEC position, but I’d say you are best off going for a 705 jet FO spot asap, learning the operation, then attempt upgrade process when you meet internal requirements.

Since your ultimate goal is Airline,

Make sure you have enough PIC to complete ATPL, then call it a day. You’re far better off joining a 705 now, upgrading in few years, and be middle of the seniority list, compared to waiting at your 703 to go left seat, then joining that same 705 and be bottom of the list.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goleafsgo
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:13 pm

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by goleafsgo »

Jazz is seniority
---------- ADS -----------
 
wing'd
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:29 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by wing'd »

Thank you guys so much!

Yes I built all of my pic needed for atpl while instructing, juste need to finish up my TT which I guess I could at a 705
---------- ADS -----------
 
lownslow
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1709
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:56 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by lownslow »

I don’t know how it is now but a couple years ago it was generally seniority with gates. Don’t have the required MPIC, then you need more time on type (or whatever). Someone Junior to you has the MPIC and upgrades. There are matrices to define these gates but I’ve never seen one posted here. Maybe Morpheus was right that you have to experience it yourself to understand.
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by co-joe »

goleafsgo wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:27 am Jazz is seniority
Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position. :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
mmm...bacon
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:51 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by mmm...bacon »

^ One wonders whether that is an apocryphal story or not? Everybody seems to have heard of this person, but I have a hard time thinking that someone would be so confident/arrogant/unaware that they'd actually attempt that...
---------- ADS -----------
 
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by co-joe »

I heard it from someone who, if the story is true, would be in the know, so it seemed plausible. He went on to say they pulled the kid in to the office to firmly suggest that this was not how things were done and that he should seriously reconsider his bid. :lol:

Perhaps the story is an anecdote they pass around to dissuade people from wasting the training department's time.

I know that most of the rapidly expanding airlines like mine have some sliding scales of experience (matrix)required to even bid for a command. As we move on further into this experience shortage those numbers will come down and training departments will have to change their approaches to the whole process.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by co-joe on Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by digits_ »

co-joe wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:37 am
goleafsgo wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:27 am Jazz is seniority
Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position. :lol:
Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by altiplano »

digits_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:04 am
co-joe wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:37 am
goleafsgo wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:27 am Jazz is seniority
Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position. :lol:
Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.
That's not how it works. You meet the standard or you don't.

A low timer with an bare bones ATPL and no real world experience has ZERO business trying to get himself into that seat. No experience or sense apparently.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by digits_ »

altiplano wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:38 pm
digits_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:04 am
co-joe wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:37 am

Although being awarded an upgrade is based solely on seniority at JAzz, making it through the process relies heavily on experience. I heard a funny story of a 1500 hour instructor with freshly minted ATPL bidding CRJ Captain recently in his new hire bid and since there are unfilled openings he was awarded the position. He wasn't even close to being successful, and lost his new job in the process, but yes he was awarded the position. :lol:
Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.
That's not how it works. You meet the standard or you don't.
Ok. Are you sure?

The second part of your post seems to have a strong sense that there's more to it....
altiplano wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:38 pm A low timer with an bare bones ATPL and no real world experience has ZERO business trying to get himself into that seat. No experience or sense apparently.
If the trainer has the same attitude as described above, then one has to wonder if the candidate got a fair chance.

How many hours did he have in the right seat? What part of the training did he fail?

Most of the black and white, easy to judge stuff (flying accuracy, ground school knowledge, procedure knowledge) is very similar to flying from the right seat. The story implies that he was an FO first and was aiming for a quick upgrade. Going on a limb here, I will assume that the failed on the more 'soft skills' of the upgrade process. CRM or airmanship or decisionmaking skills. Which are much harder to judge.

It's easy to fail pretty much any pilot during training if you really want to. Nobody's perfect.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
jpilot77
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 684
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: North of YMX

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by jpilot77 »

digits_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:45 pm
altiplano wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:38 pm
digits_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:04 am

Which begs the question: was he *really* not successful, or did they make sure he wasn't successful? Or perhaps both.
That's not how it works. You meet the standard or you don't.
Ok. Are you sure?

The second part of your post seems to have a strong sense that there's more to it....
altiplano wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:38 pm A low timer with an bare bones ATPL and no real world experience has ZERO business trying to get himself into that seat. No experience or sense apparently.
If the trainer has the same attitude as described above, then one has to wonder if the candidate got a fair chance.

How many hours did he have in the right seat? What part of the training did he fail?

Most of the black and white, easy to judge stuff (flying accuracy, ground school knowledge, procedure knowledge) is very similar to flying from the right seat. The story implies that he was an FO first and was aiming for a quick upgrade. Going on a limb here, I will assume that the failed on the more 'soft skills' of the upgrade process. CRM or airmanship or decisionmaking skills. Which are much harder to judge.

It's easy to fail pretty much any pilot during training if you really want to. Nobody's perfect.
He was a new hire, he had zero 705 experience (and for that matter zero 704 or 703 experience). Basically he was an instructor with an ATPL who bid left seat CRJ captain. A guy I know was in the same PIT course.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by jpilot77 on Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to Redneck Airlines. We might not get you there but we'll get you close!
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by digits_ »

Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy! :smt040
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by altiplano »

digits_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:37 pm Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy! :smt040
Not ballsy, stupid. Didn't know that he didn't know shit, and now he's left with shit.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
RoAF-Mig21
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:43 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

jpilot77 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:57 pm ...Basically he was an instructor with an ATPL who bid left seat CRJ captain. A guy I know was in the same PIT course...
The ATPL requirements in Canada need to change. On top of what's required now, one MUST HAVE min 500 hrs on a high performance two crew aircraft. At the very least, a Dash 8, ATR, etc. Getting an ATPL flying a 172 is beyond insane. It's in the name for crying out loud "ATPL... Airline..."

Having an ATPL does not mean you'll make it as a captain. They will give you a shot at it when you're eligible (seniority wise), but you'll have to pass the training, including the line indoc. They're not just going to sign you off because you have the min required time. Remember that old saying "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5930
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by digits_ »

altiplano wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:58 pm
digits_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:37 pm Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy! :smt040
Not ballsy, stupid. Didn't know that he didn't know shit, and now he's left with shit.
Perhaps. He is likely back at his old job making more money ;-)

He was probably told in the interview that he could expect a quick upgrade having an ATPL.

Is it stupid that he attempted the course, or is it stupid the company underpays their pilots which allowed this situation to occur?

Also note that ATPL instructor holders are intentionally hired for DEC King air and Metro positions. Something that would have been called equally stupid 5 or 10 years ago. And they operate successfully and safely.

I am sure that with proper training (and probably longer/more training than currently allotted) some 1500 hour instructors would be capable of passing the course and safely executing the job.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
co-joe
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4562
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by co-joe »

digits_ wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:25 am
I am sure that with proper training (and probably longer/more training than currently allotted) some 1500 hour instructors would be capable of passing the course and safely executing the job.
I agree 100% that they could at least pass the ride with the right training program behind them (which doesn't exist in Canada yet), but there's a lot more to being an airline Captain than passing the ride. I'm sure half the kids straight out of MRU, or Seneca aviation programs that have been training Jazz SOPs for 2 years straight, and doing CRJ sim training, could be coached through the ride. But there's just no way they have the experience to safely keep OTP in a 705 jet, or 360 kt turboprop for that matter.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
RoAF-Mig21
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:43 am

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

co-joe wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:17 pm I agree 100% that they could at least pass the ride with the right training program behind them (which doesn't exist in Canada yet), but there's a lot more to being an airline Captain than passing the ride. I'm sure half the kids straight out of MRU, or Seneca aviation programs that have been training Jazz SOPs for 2 years straight, and doing CRJ sim training, could be coached through the ride. But there's just no way they have the experience to safely keep OTP in a 705 jet, or 360 kt turboprop for that matter.
One of the things engineers consider is "FOS" or "Factor of Safety". When you design an elevator, and it's maximum capacity is 1200 kg or 15 persons, that elevator can actually handle a lot more than that. A factor of safety is built into it that could easily handle 3000 kg, yet the legal number is much lower than that.

It's kind of the same thing with pilots. A 20,000 hr captain has a different "factor of safety" built into him than a 2000 hr captain.

I always chuckle when I see guys online acting as being a regional captain is a joke. I'd say it's some of the most challenging type of flying there is. You have many legs a day to busy airports, sometimes with inexperienced pilots. Think of that day 4 of 4 LGA turn, being 2 hrs late, snowing low visibility and you're a 2000 hr captain flying a CRJ 900 with a 200 hr F/O beside you. What's your "factor of safety"? How's the swiss cheese aligned?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Turboprops
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:47 pm

Re: Airline Upgrades

Post by Turboprops »

digits_ wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:25 am
altiplano wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:58 pm
digits_ wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:37 pm Ooooh, ok, that is ballsy! :smt040
Not ballsy, stupid. Didn't know that he didn't know shit, and now he's left with shit.
Perhaps. He is likely back at his old job making more money ;-)

He was probably told in the interview that he could expect a quick upgrade having an ATPL.

Is it stupid that he attempted the course, or is it stupid the company underpays their pilots which allowed this situation to occur?

Also note that ATPL instructor holders are intentionally hired for DEC King air and Metro positions. Something that would have been called equally stupid 5 or 10 years ago. And they operate successfully and safely.

I am sure that with proper training (and probably longer/more training than currently allotted) some 1500 hour instructors would be capable of passing the course and safely executing the job.
You keep saying flight instructors are being hired DEC on king airs/metros, please just name a few companies doing that. Last place I worked all external hired instructors struggled through FO flight training, some don’t even make it through the sims, it was a metro operator.

Proper training would be like a full year of line indoc for this guy, at which point it’s basically do a year of right seat and upgrade, and costs way too much.

Maybe he was told a quick upgrade, but that’s not DEC.

To answer some of your question, he failed the captain sim evaluation, had absolutely zero experience outside of an FTU before coming to Jazz. Do you think there are any training programs on planet earth that’ll prepare him to be a CRJ captain?

Captains are about making the right decisions, and he made a very stupid decision right off the bat.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Employment Forum”