How old is to old to go to AC?

[link821]

Ya i don't understand this line of thinking. You don't keep your DOH on this imaginary "ALPA master list" when you move from say Jazz to West Jet. Or Bearskin to Canadian North. Or Calm Air to Cargojet. Or Flightcraft to Flair.....you get the point....AC becoming ALPA will change nothing in this regard and people who think it will are out of touch

Exactly. Or …. Delta to United. I’d laugh at the notion of the newly ALPA Air Canada pilots knocking on Delta’s door and demanding a DOH merge.

One only has to look at past airline mergers in Canada to see that the union to what each belonged had absolutely no play in how the lists were integrated. Look at Transair/PWA, EPA/CP, Nordair/CP and PWA/CP. All belonged to the same union, NONE were DOH!

Here’s a kicker for you, Wardair/Canadian were different unions and it was a DOH merge.

I don't work for AC or express but hasn't there been a precedent set somewhat recently with DOH mergers and fences put in place to protect positions?

Yeah in recent years the best way to get a good seniority number at Jazz was to work at Ggn or Sky…lol

[Crewbunk]

I don't work for AC or express but hasn't there been a precedent set somewhat recently with DOH mergers and fences put in place to protect positions?

I have studied hundreds of North American merges. I have seen just about every permutation and combination.

You may have heard the term “no bump, no flush”. That is common with most merges. Simply stating that when the integration is complete you will retain your current position (if it still exists) and can not be moved from it, even by someone now senior, until you bid off the position.

Also common is left seat protection, equipment protection and base protection. These are things which can be negotiated.

Historically, arbitrators don’t like to break new ground. Commonly, the final method of list integration has occurred in the past.

[Crewbunk]

Yeah in recent years the best way to get a good seniority number at Jazz was to work at Ggn or Sky…lol

The interesting thing about the Jazz/Georgian/Skyregional merge is that it wasn’t arbitrated.

The three sides met with a mediator and decided amongst themselves how the list should be integrated. If all sides agree, then the process stops there. So clearly everyone was happy with the results.

Arbitration only begins (along with the whole merger process) when all sides don’t agree. Which is by far, the vast majority.

[lee123]

Never too old. Make the move, as you'll still be far happier here than anywhere else in Canada.

[RoAF-Mig21]

...22 years left in your career...

That's assuming you want or can work till 65. For me that's a deal breaker. I will not work a day over the age of 60, regardless of how much money I get. (Mind you, living in Canada, after what Comrade Trudeau did to our economy, one may never be able to retire).

Thank the stars I have a E.U. passport and I can easily spend my retirement in Greece, Spain, Southern Italy or Eastern Europe, where to cost of living is way cheapper than CANADA. Some of my fellow co-workers may not have that option.

Each case is unique. What works for one person doesn't work for others. For me, I don't see a great advantage going to AC, (it's a 50/50 at this point). ...again, balancing my personal scenarios. Then again, I'd leave Canada tomorrow if I can get a job elsewhere.

[rudder]

...22 years left in your career...

That's assuming you want or can work till 65. For me that's a deal breaker. I will not work a day over the age of 60, regardless of how much money I get. (Mind you, living in Canada, after what Comrade Trudeau did to our economy, one may never be able to retire).

Thank the stars I have a E.U. passport and I can easily spend my retirement in Greece, Spain, Southern Italy or Eastern Europe, where to cost of living is way cheapper than CANADA. Some of my fellow co-workers may not have that option.

Each case is unique. What works for one person doesn't work for others. For me, I don't see a great advantage going to AC, (it's a 50/50 at this point). ...again, balancing my personal scenarios. Then again, I'd leave Canada tomorrow if I can get a job elsewhere.

In the last 4 years (2 of which were the worst in the history of commercial aviation) I have made over $1M. I am not 65 but am getting closer (60+).

If your last years of service are at or near your highest annual T4’s, and then you factor in pension, for some age 60-65 may actually be the most lucrative earning years of their career. But then there is schedule and QOL.

To each their own. Life is about choices and we all only have so much time on the planet (some sadly less than others).

[Arnie Pye]

How old is too old to go to Air Canada? Based on their starting salary, I'd say 25.

[Ash Ketchum]

I think this question depends on your life situation. For example, a 40 year old with no kids/wife/mortgage is maybe better able to weather 4 years of flat pay compared to the 32 year old father of 3 with a stay at home wife and a mortgage in the GTA.

[RoAF-Mig21]

I think this question depends on your life situation. For example, a 40 year old with no kids/wife/mortgage is maybe better able to weather 4 years of flat pay compared to the 32 year old father of 3 with a stay at home wife and a mortgage in the GTA.

I think that's the best answer I've heard so far. Excellent.

If I went to AC now, I'd have to take a pay-cut. I don't live close to YVR, YYZ or YUL and being a junior pilot on reserve or with a poor schedule would mean I'd have to get a crash pad. So not only will I make less money than I make now (to start off with), I'd have to have a place to stay. I'm not getting a crash pad where I'm sharing the room with another dude, so renting a room would be at least $1000 a month, if not more.

Also, it took some people many years to have a decent schedule. That's actually more important to some than actual money. Anyone who has children knows how important it is for them to be able to take care of those kids, not only with basic life necessities, but also bring them to sports practice, birthday parties, spend time with them at home in weekends, be there for birthdays and Christmas, etc. These are all things that have no meaning to someone unless he or she is a parent.

If AC was to offer a decent starting wage, I would consider it, but then again I would still have to weigh in if it's worth giving up the best years of my child's life (when they're little) so I can fly an A220 or B777 at the bottom of the list. Maybe, if I get a decent schedule it'll be worth it. That's why I said it's 50/50 at this point, but 0/100 in reality because of the low starting pay at AC and the pay-cut I'd have to take. Can't do that with children and a mortgage.

P.S. If I were single, I'd go 100%. I'd live in someone's basement for a few years while getting my seniority up there.

[Inverted2]

...22 years left in your career...

That's assuming you want or can work till 65. For me that's a deal breaker. I will not work a day over the age of 60, regardless of how much money I get. (Mind you, living in Canada, after what Comrade Trudeau did to our economy, one may never be able to retire).

Thank the stars I have a E.U. passport and I can easily spend my retirement in Greece, Spain, Southern Italy or Eastern Europe, where to cost of living is way cheapper than CANADA. Some of my fellow co-workers may not have that option.

Each case is unique. What works for one person doesn't work for others. For me, I don't see a great advantage going to AC, (it's a 50/50 at this point). ...again, balancing my personal scenarios. Then again, I'd leave Canada tomorrow if I can get a job elsewhere.

In the last 4 years (2 of which were the worst in the history of commercial aviation) I have made over $1M. I am not 65 but am getting closer (60+).

If your last years of service are at or near your highest annual T4’s, and then you factor in pension, for some age 60-65 may actually be the most lucrative earning years of their career. But then there is schedule and QOL.

To each their own. Life is about choices and we all only have so much time on the planet (some sadly less than others).

Yeah but you work an insane amount of overtime. How much of that million did you donate to Justin?

[rudder]

That's assuming you want or can work till 65. For me that's a deal breaker. I will not work a day over the age of 60, regardless of how much money I get. (Mind you, living in Canada, after what Comrade Trudeau did to our economy, one may never be able to retire).

Thank the stars I have a E.U. passport and I can easily spend my retirement in Greece, Spain, Southern Italy or Eastern Europe, where to cost of living is way cheapper than CANADA. Some of my fellow co-workers may not have that option.

Each case is unique. What works for one person doesn't work for others. For me, I don't see a great advantage going to AC, (it's a 50/50 at this point). ...again, balancing my personal scenarios. Then again, I'd leave Canada tomorrow if I can get a job elsewhere.

In the last 4 years (2 of which were the worst in the history of commercial aviation) I have made over $1M. I am not 65 but am getting closer (60+).

If your last years of service are at or near your highest annual T4’s, and then you factor in pension, for some age 60-65 may actually be the most lucrative earning years of their career. But then there is schedule and QOL.

To each their own. Life is about choices and we all only have so much time on the planet (some sadly less than others).

Yeah but you work an insane amount of overtime. How much of that million did you donate to Justin?

Justin got more than his fair share. Not quite what a buddy of mine who is a 777 CA paid last year ($200k). It all contributed to a home that is paid for, kids education and housing, and no debt. And a six figure pension to look forward to in a couple of years. As I look back over the decades of my career, that was not always the case. I still averaged time off that equated to a junior block holder.

The point being that whether it is a decision about AC or what age to retire, it will be based on a similar list of priorities for most pilots, but the priorities will be in different orders. In my case, a non-overtime work month would be perhaps 11 or 12 work days. Less on a vacation month. So the attraction to leave early won’t really be based on QOL since work does not really interfere with my time off. At the same time, being debt free means I bank much more of my net pay than in my earlier years. That money will provide lifestyle, down payments for my kids first homes, and ultimately transfer to them as part of my estate. Those are my priorities.

The best situation is to have choices. The financial freedom to leave early. The right to continue to work. The ability to control time off and sleep patterns. Another acquaintance is retiring this month from AC after 44 years. How many pilots have a 44 year career and at just one airline? Not many.

You have to be very lucky in aviation to have never been laid off and never found yourself unemployed due to employer liquidation. I consider myself lucky.

[Inverted2]

Not knocking you for it. Your choice and all. I pick up a day or 2 here and there but the taxation theft limits the amount I work.

[jetav8r]

anyone know how old the oldest new pilot hired is the last 6-12 months?

Jet

[co-joe]

For me the how old is too old math comes down to what your current salary/ earning potential is, and are you going to be a commuter. Personally if you're going to be a commuter over 45 and have a decent job, it's likely not worth it, whereas if you live in one of their bases, then you can stretch that quite a bit. In both cases you won't live long enough to see the left seat of a wide body, but you can still live long enough to have a great career there. It's easy to think you'll upgrade quick if things stay as they are today, but I believe once you get a taste of juniority and just how shitty life can be at the BOTL, and you see what the schedules are like for junior Captains, you won't move seats early. Unless you already have 3 ex wives to pay for then money is a powerful motivator.

[Captain101]

As for pension I was reading in the CBA that for example if one is to retire in 2024 the MPU is $4996. If one did 30 years of service would their annual pension be $4996 x 30 = $149,880. Not sure if my understanding of it is correct but just trying to come up to a ball park figure of what my pension could be if I retire after 30 years at AC.

Thanks for any info.

[rudder]

As for pension I was reading in the CBA that for example if one is to retire in 2024 the MPU is $4996. If one did 30 years of service would their annual pension be $4996 x 30 = $149,880. Not sure if my understanding of it is correct but just trying to come up to a ball park figure of what my pension could be if I retire after 30 years at AC.

Thanks for any info.

MPU applies to DB pension pilots only. CWIPP is different (applies to all new hire pilots). Still attractive. But not as lucrative as DB plus the top hat.

[rudder]

Not knocking you for it. Your choice and all. I pick up a day or 2 here and there but the taxation theft limits the amount I work.

53.4% on last dollar earned. Ugh. I partially mitigate with charitable contributions.

[Curiousflyer]

35 is too old now. If you come in today, older than that you will likely never see widebody captain. As there are thousands above you on the seniority list, they are junior. Don’t let the older generation fool you, scheduling with the new duty rules, is incredibly inefficient, something they never had to deal with while doing their red-eye turns. I’m not knocking them; it’s a lack of understanding.
The truth is 5-7 year Narrowbody FO’s still bid Reserve to hold weekends off, Narrowbody captains can only get their days worked down from maximum, if they can already hold widebody captain. The lifestyle hit, if you join AC now older than 35 will be significant and unless you never need a Saturday off, or summer vacation for the next 30 years, you’re probably better off going somewhere else.

Now all of that is based on the current situation, who knows what the future brings.
But with YYZ, YVR, YUL basically at flight capacity, I don’t see much room for growth. Already YYZ airport has announced hard caps and that’s before AC can return to 2019 passenger levels.

[altiplano]

For clarity... Junior 767 freighter Captain is around 4 years seniority I think... pretty sure that's a former furlough... That's a widebody. Pays like a narrowbody though (@#$! you Mckay) and the schedule sucks.

That said, AC isn't as good as it used to be. Far from it. Unless you're a 777 CA already or senior in your seat/base you have to be pretty adaptable as scheduling sucks and the pay isn't enough to make up for it and you work too much.

If you aren't going to be a 777 CA should you not come here? Probably not at the current package... Go be a direct entry EMJ CA at Porter for 200K+ if you are experienced. Force AC to raise new hire pay, all FO pay, make them make a career as an AC A320 CA attractive again. It used to be a really good job. Took 10 years to be the bottom A320 CA because it was pretty fuckin good. Not anymore. Almost new hire position.

We are paid the least and work the most of any developed world Legacy airline. The self aggrandizement that comes out of HQ is comical bullshit...

Also, if you do come here now make sure you're ready to go out this fall. Because when this contract is up, being ready to go out will be the only way to get it back.

[airbournesailor]

I started with AC 4 years ago at 50. People thought I was crazy to give up my career and start flying in my 30’s. Maybe I was but I don’t regret it. It all comes down to personal choices and priorities. It is definitely tougher when you’re older for sure.