WJ mainline cancelling GS due to lack of experienced applicants

[bobcaygeon]

Is there any truth to WJ mainline cancelling ground schools lately? If so, is it due to lack of legitimately qualified candidates or for another reason? If so, what are the other reasons?

TIA

[RRJetPilot]

Pay more.

[Canadaflyer46]

Haven't heard of them canceling classes. They do have numerous people quit during training. A recent class had 3 people leave for AC during Sim I was told by a friend in the training dept. This is not unusual.
With their plan to hire 400 or so this year I'm expecting they will have to lower their 1500 hour requirement soon.
Funny thing is the company isn't actually growing, if anything WJ mainline is shrinking, so all these hires just seem to be to replace people quitting. According to our management it's actually free to train pilots at WJ at least.

[Old fella]

CBC reported today the WJ cancelled their summer 2023 scheduled flights from here in Halifax to Dublin, Glasgow, London Gatwick and Paris. Those were popular destinations as I understand, it’s unfortunate and perhaps it’s due to constraints on their(WJ) overall system. The article further stated that European destinations from Toronto and Vancouver cancelled as well however it was not clear where in Europe WJ flew from YVR and YYZ. WJ themselves are quoted as saying hopefully they will be back out of YHZ to Europe 2024, which suggests isn’t related to lack of business. Be interesting to see if WJ will keep their fleet of B787 if Europe isn’t in the cards.

[Inverted2]

The 10+ year upgrade times will keep a lot of applicants away.

[JBI]

CBC reported today the WJ cancelled their summer 2023 scheduled flights from here in Halifax to Dublin, Glasgow, London Gatwick and Paris. Those were popular destinations as I understand, it’s unfortunate and perhaps it’s due to constraints on their(WJ) overall system. The article further stated that European destinations from Toronto and Vancouver cancelled as well however it was not clear where in Europe WJ flew from YVR and YYZ. WJ themselves are quoted as saying hopefully they will be back out of YHZ to Europe 2024, which suggests isn’t related to lack of business. Be interesting to see if WJ will keep their fleet of B787 if Europe isn’t in the cards.

I'm sure the CBC did a stellar job of reporting all the key facts and reasons behind the decision...

It is true that WJ is only flying to Europe from YYC this year. For better or for worse, it is part of the strategy to focus and strengthen their presence in Western Canada. The reality is that all the expansion during the Gregg Saretsky era gave more planes and destinations, but not any increase in profit. No real point in growing for growth's sake if it doesn't actually make you money. GGG wanted growth even though his network planners and revenue management teams told him that the flying wouldn't be profitable. True story about his ill planned "invasion" of Montreal.

While I can't say that I agree with WJ's decision to stop some of the 737 Trans-Atlantic Flights (as in my opinion they meet the criteria of focusing on leisure travel), I can see the benefit of beefing up the YYC and Western Canada presence. The 787s out of YYC will be operating a full schedule this summer which includes Narita Japan, LHR, LGW, DUB, Edinburgh, Paris, Rome & Barcelona).

As for the ground schools, haven't heard of any cancellations, though both WJ and Encore have had students leave mid training to go to Jazz or AC. There has been a slight change with the make up of the classes. Instead of both Encore Flow pilots and OTS pilots in each ground school, it will be split every other month. i.e., May will be all OTS pilots, June will be all Encore pilots. So, perhaps there was some shuffling.

[Old fella]

CBC reported today the WJ cancelled their summer 2023 scheduled flights from here in Halifax to Dublin, Glasgow, London Gatwick and Paris. Those were popular destinations as I understand, it’s unfortunate and perhaps it’s due to constraints on their(WJ) overall system. The article further stated that European destinations from Toronto and Vancouver cancelled as well however it was not clear where in Europe WJ flew from YVR and YYZ. WJ themselves are quoted as saying hopefully they will be back out of YHZ to Europe 2024, which suggests isn’t related to lack of business. Be interesting to see if WJ will keep their fleet of B787 if Europe isn’t in the cards.

I'm sure the CBC did a stellar job of reporting all the key facts and reasons behind the decision...

It is true that WJ is only flying to Europe from YYC this year. For better or for worse, it is part of the strategy to focus and strengthen their presence in Western Canada. The reality is that all the expansion during the Gregg Saretsky era gave more planes and destinations, but not any increase in profit. No real point in growing for growth's sake if it doesn't actually make you money. GGG wanted growth even though his network planners and revenue management teams told him that the flying wouldn't be profitable. True story about his ill planned "invasion" of Montreal.

While I can't say that I agree with WJ's decision to stop some of the 737 Trans-Atlantic Flights (as in my opinion they meet the criteria of focusing on leisure travel), I can see the benefit of beefing up the YYC and Western Canada presence. The 787s out of YYC will be operating a full schedule this summer which includes Narita Japan, LHR, LGW, DUB, Edinburgh, Paris, Rome & Barcelona).

As for the ground schools, haven't heard of any cancellations, though both WJ and Encore have had students leave mid training to go to Jazz or AC. There has been a slight change with the make up of the classes. Instead of both Encore Flow pilots and OTS pilots in each ground school, it will be split every other month. i.e., May will be all OTS pilots, June will be all Encore pilots. So, perhaps there was some shuffling.

Personally, I didn’t detect any biases towards WJ in that article, just a statement on their reduction to Europe from YHZ. As for WestJet’s strategy going forward, it’s safe to assume WJ knows what is best for WJ , the internal process used to arrive at WJ’s future plans isn’t an issue members of the travelling public like me really care about. WJ is a very good airline, I have flown with them on occasion, along with family members and service was A+.

Incidentally CBC has an article out this morning on pilot shortages here in Canada, interesting read.

[averageatbest]

Personally, I didn’t detect any biases towards WJ in that article, just a statement on their reduction to Europe from YHZ. As for WestJet’s strategy going forward, it’s safe to assume WJ knows what is best for WJ , the internal process used to arrive at WJ’s future plans isn’t an issue members of the travelling public like me really care about. WJ is a very good airline, I have flown with them on occasion, along with family members and service was A+.

Incidentally CBC has an article out this morning on pilot shortages here in Canada, interesting read.

WJ may know what's best for WJ, but Onex is the one calling the shots. That's why WJ is pulling it's arms out and so that it's legs look bigger. There is no care for the long-term future of WJ from Onex.

[Apestogetherstrong]

We just lost Rashid to AC. What a gem he was! WJ is in a spiral dive to failure. Apparently the CEO is getting sacked as well. What stupid leadership lets that many pilot leave just to save pennies on the dollar.

[YC87DRVR]

As the old saying goes, pay peanuts, get monkey’s.

[lostaviator]

Apparently the CEO is getting sacked as well.

Where did you hear that?

[daedalusx]

Onex buying WJ destroyed everything good about it. It’s now a soulless corporate machine. What a shame. And the customers have noticed the change and they’re not impressed.

[Vanguard]

We just lost Rashid to AC. What a gem he was! WJ is in a spiral dive to failure. Apparently the CEO is getting sacked as well. What stupid leadership lets that many pilot leave just to save pennies on the dollar.

PilotRashid left WJ? Wow. Things must be getting really bad if guys like him leave WJ. He pretty much bled teal since the beginning. At least the was enjoyable to fly with and good pilot too. AC is getting some really good people now. I sense some good changes coming for contract season.

[Canadaflyer46]

Partakes in a WJ promotional video and then quits for AC a few weeks later. That’s pretty funny actually.

[Vanguard]

Partakes in a WJ promotional video and then quits for AC a few weeks later. That’s pretty funny actually.

I think it sends a strong message to the company. Knowing him I doubt he planned to leave but he’s clearly smart - didn’t see a future there anymore and made his move. I don’t blame him - he’s gonna have a better future at AC and I’m pretty sure he was quite young and senior when I flew with him at Encore. Lots of other guys will do the same.

It’s popcorn season boys. Sit back and watch the show.

[JBI]

Partakes in a WJ promotional video and then quits for AC a few weeks later. That’s pretty funny actually.

well, like 40 weeks later (videos were filmed last spring). But still, should send messages to management when great folks are leaving for AC. But they seem to just care about the net numbers. AC has received some pretty amazing people over the last 6 months.

[maverick12]

What a shame, Rashid’s a solid guy. Good for AC

[Canadaflyer46]

Partakes in a WJ promotional video and then quits for AC a few weeks later. That’s pretty funny actually.

well, like 40 weeks later (videos were filmed last spring). But still, should send messages to management when great folks are leaving for AC. But they seem to just care about the net numbers. AC has received some pretty amazing people over the last 6 months.

Yeah, like the entire Encore MEC leaving for AC as soon as they flowed to mainline. Oh and a year 10 FO who’d just been awarded an upgrade at WJ. Now Rashid. These should send strong messages to management. But they don’t care at all. They’ll watch all the experienced guys leave and replace them with 1500 hour guys (soon to lower that requirement I hear) at year 1 pay, and think that’s a win. I didn’t hear the exact numbers on the latest management video, but wasn’t it something like 250 pilots left last year and we hired 270? Good thing it’s free to train pilots here.

[digits_]

Good thing it’s free to train pilots here.

What's the cost difference for an initial vs 6 month / 1 year recurrent?

You could likely approximate the cost of a pilot leaving by adding 50% of a 6 month recurrent and the difference between initial and 6 month recurrent.

[lostaviator]

Do you think JA regrets saying those words now? Haha.

Honestly guys, I don’t really think they care about people like pilotrashid, or 10yr Fo’s etc leaving.

They don’t care how many followers you have on Instagram, or what kind of person or pilot you are. The only question is “does this person meet the requirements for us to operate a plane”.

They don’t even conduct proper exit interviews to learn what they can do better (it’s just a survey monkey last time I heard).

Based on what I’m hearing about negotiations, the company’s mentality towards employees, and the fact this company doesn’t even know their own identify - the people leaving are all making the right decision.

[Aviator12]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

[lostaviator]

Why leave before the contract gets finalized? Seems like quite a risk losing all those years of seniority. WestJet has their issues but I’ve learned throughout my career the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. Wasn’t long ago AC was garbage and WestJet was the place to be. Could easily cycle back to that.
I plan to stick it out and at least see what the new contract looks like. Besides, 4 years of flat pay, 10 years of reserve and not having Xmas off for 20 years doesn’t seem too appealing to me.
The way it’s going now it looks like the 10 year upgrade could get reduced pretty quickly with the amount of turnover.

I’m with you up until your last statement.

I agree. I’m sticking it out. I don’t think the grass is greener for my situation.

However, I don’t see upgrade times being reduced as a result of this high turnover. We do have some more senior people leaving, but the majority are still low seniority. If JA has said one thing in his videos that I believe to be 100% accurate it’s the fact they can’t upgrade pilots if they don’t have the FO’s to back fill their spots. We can’t have 1000 captains with 500 FO’s. Makes pairing construction a challenge. Unless… and here’s an idea…. They start paying everyone who has been here 10 years at their respective captain rate. Ha! Dare to dream.

[daedalusx]

If WJ FOs were paid Delta FO wages or even Spirit Air wages ... there wouldn't be much worry about upgrade times

[Dronepiper]

Honestly a long upgrade time sucks, but it would suck wayyyy less if FO’s actually made better money.

I mean, a 3rd year A320 Jetblue FO now makes 185k USD a year.

Now I don’t expect to make that in Canada, but I feel like WJ and AC rates could jump 30% and progress quicker. I feel like the following is a pretty solid “base pay” structure for mainline 737 FO’s at WJ.

1st Year - 95k
2nd year - 105k
3rd year - 130k
4th year - 140k
5th year - 142k
6th year - 145k
7th year - 150k
8th year - 155k
9th year - 160k
10th year - 165k

Add an extra 30k/year on those numbers for the 787.

I don’t believe this is anything crazy. It’s still way less then our American counterparts, but I think it’s totally fair and doable. Just look at what AC used to pay in 2003. Canadian aviation used to be just as good as the USA. We lost a lot after 9/11 and AC’s bankruptcy.

[fish4life]

Honestly a long upgrade time sucks, but it would suck wayyyy less if FO’s actually made better money.

I mean, a 3rd year A320 Jetblue FO now makes 185k USD a year.

Now I don’t expect to make that in Canada, but I feel like WJ and AC rates could jump 30% and progress quicker. I feel like the following is a pretty solid “base pay” structure for mainline 737 FO’s at WJ.

1st Year - 95k
2nd year - 105k
3rd year - 130k
4th year - 140k
5th year - 142k
6th year - 145k
7th year - 150k
8th year - 155k
9th year - 160k
10th year - 165k

Add an extra 30k/year on those numbers for the 787.

I don’t believe this is anything crazy. It’s still way less then our American counterparts, but I think it’s totally fair and doable. Just look at what AC used to pay in 2003. Canadian aviation used to be just as good as the USA. We lost a lot after 9/11 and AC’s bankruptcy.

The American carriers lost a lot post 9/11 as well, entire pensions wiped out etc. It wasn’t long ago that regional FO’s in the US were making 17k/yr now with bonuses they are almost making that much per month