AA Crew involved in JFK near miss refuses to talk to NTSB

[rookiepilot]

https://www.businessinsider.com/america ... ews-2023-2

American Airlines flight crew involved in a near collision with a Delta plane at JFK 'refused' to sit down for recorded interviews with authorities.

The American Airlines crew involved in a near-collision have "refused" to be interviewed by authorities.
The staff have declined to be interviewed because they would be audio recorded.
The Allied Pilots Association says it does not allow its members to interviewed while being recorded. Hmmmmmmm…….that doesn’t sound like cooperating.

Members of an American Airlines flight crew involved in a near-collision with a Delta plane at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York have "refused" to sit down for recorded interviews with the National Transport Safety Board, the federal body has said.

The NTSB said that it had attempted to interview the American Airlines flight crew three different times and the airline had even cleared the crew's schedule, it said in a preliminary report released on February 10.

The report said that "the flight crew refused to be interviewed on the basis that their statements would be audio recorded for transcription."

The Allied Pilots Association said on behalf of the crew that it does not consent to audio-recorded interviews in this manner and is instead requiring a court reporter to record and transcribe the interviews to ensure the "highest degree of accuracy, completeness, and efficiency," per the report.

The APA wrote in a blog post: "We firmly believe the introduction of electronic recording devices into witness interviews is more likely to hinder the investigation process than it is to improve it."

As a result of this refusal, the NTSB issued subpoenas to the three flight crew members asking them to provide testimony and giving them seven days to respond.

Additionally, the safety board wrote that it obtained cockpit voice recorder data from the aircraft, but both had been overwritten — meaning that information about how the near-crash happened was missing.

American Airlines did not immediately respond to Insider's request for comment about the interviews. In a statement given to the Wall Street Journal, American Airlines said it is cooperating with the NTSB investigation.

In January, a Delta Air Lines Boeing 737 was rolling down the runway ready for takeoff when it abruptly stopped and narrowly avoided colliding with the American Airlines Boeing 777 — in an event known as a "runway incursion."

The 153 passengers and six crew members on the Delta plane and 137 passengers and 12 crew members on the American plane were all uninjured, the NTSB's preliminary report said.

The NTSB issued an additional statement shared with Insider saying its investigators frequently use recording devices in interviews, particularly in the case of incidents or accidents.

It said that written statements recieved from the Delta crew have been reviewed and contains "sufficient information for NTSB investigative purposes given their role in the incident."

Additionally, the safety board wrote that it obtained cockpit voice recorder data from the aircraft, but both had been overwritten — meaning that information about how the near-crash happened was missing. 


This last part. Overwriting of a CVR in light of a serious incident —- Not cool to see pilots do this. Fix CVR’s so this can’t happen.

The incident:

https://www.businessinsider.com/faa-nts ... endations=

Audio + reconstruction. No wonder they don’t want to talk. Crossed the wrong ### runway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsFIHKkN2oU

And I was warming up to pilot unions…

[flyingcanuck]

situation aside whoever wrote this should be fired too. gave me a headache.

[cdnavater]

“This last part. Overwriting of a CVR in light of a serious incident —- Not cool to see pilots do this. Fix CVR’s so this can’t happen.”

I’m going to be diplomatic about this, to be clear I have no idea if the pilots hit the ol erase button as it is a federal offence, so being fired would be the least of their worries.
However, it is pretty standard for voice recorders to overwrite themselves after two hours of recording, this is likely what they are referring to.
Same thing happened to the SFO incident you have often referred to, the aircraft flew again before the request for the cvr was made, it too was overwritten.

[rookiepilot]

“This last part. Overwriting of a CVR in light of a serious incident —- Not cool to see pilots do this. Fix CVR’s so this can’t happen.”

I’m going to be diplomatic about this, to be clear I have no idea if the pilots hit the ol erase button as it is a federal offence, so being fired would be the least of their worries.
However, it is pretty standard for voice recorders to overwrite themselves after two hours of recording, this is likely what they are referring to.
Same thing happened to the SFO incident you have often referred to, the aircraft flew again before the request for the cvr was made, it too was overwritten.

I am not diplomatic. In both cases the crew could have and should have preserved the tape.

Fix the #### CVR. Now.

[cdnavater]

“This last part. Overwriting of a CVR in light of a serious incident —- Not cool to see pilots do this. Fix CVR’s so this can’t happen.”

I’m going to be diplomatic about this, to be clear I have no idea if the pilots hit the ol erase button as it is a federal offence, so being fired would be the least of their worries.
However, it is pretty standard for voice recorders to overwrite themselves after two hours of recording, this is likely what they are referring to.
Same thing happened to the SFO incident you have often referred to, the aircraft flew again before the request for the cvr was made, it too was overwritten.

I am not diplomatic. In both cases the crew could have and should have preserved the tape.

Fix the #### CVR. Now.

Why, the CVR is to enhance aviation safety in case the witnesses aren’t around to fill in the blanks, these guys know if they were not following the proper sterile flight deck policy. There is nothing new to learn from this, I guarantee you that!
You seem to want someone to suffer for an error they might have made, you want to guarantee the recorders are preserved, make it law that anything on them can’t be used for any type of prosecution.
Look at the AC YHZ crash, the judge released the voice recording for a lawsuit, you think that won’t cross the minds of pilots next time, maybe an accidental erasing, maybe flying with the CB pulled, all sorts of possibilities when these recordings are used for what you want

[rookiepilot]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 20443067ac

The first officer on American Airlines Flight 106, which was involved in a runway incursion Friday night at Kennedy International Airport, was flying her first flight with new cockpit procedures, a source said.

The first officer, an experienced 737 pilot, was making her first 777 flight after 100 hours of training flights that did not include the new procedures.

“She has all this data to analyze and input, plus she has a new task on top of all that,” the source said. “She was overwhelmed.”

Poor baby.

In the incident, Flight 106 crossed a runway about 1,000 feet in front of Delta Air LinesDAL +1.1% Flight 1943, which had to abort its takeoff. The Delta plane returned to the gate. The American plane, its pilots unaware of the close call, continued to London. No one was injured. Air traffic controller communications indicate that Flight 106 was on the wrong runway at the time.

Many have questioned why the American crew did not return to the gate after the incursion. The reason is that they had no knowledge of the seriousness of the incident, the source said. After the incident occurred, controllers gave the pilots a number to call.

The crew didn’t understand the gravity of what occurred until they got to London,” the source said. “That is when they realized what happened. Until then, they didn’t know there had been a runway incursion.”

Although the first officer was experienced on the Boeing 737, “she was brand new in that airplane,” said the source. “She had just read the 35-page bulletin that changes procedures.”

The captain, meanwhile, had to make a left turn and then a right turn to get on the runway, and so did not have sufficient visibility to see stop bar lights on the runway. The captain was in fact on his way to another runway. A third pilot in the cockpit also could not see the lights.

Must be JFK’s fault?

At the time of the incident, the pilots had just switched to the tower frequency from the American ground tower. “They never heard Delta cleared for takeoff,” the source said. “Delta was cleared for takeoff before they switched over.”

Source a union rep?

Talk about spin.

[rookiepilot]

Interim report.

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/ntsb ... -incursion

The United States (US) National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) released a preliminary report on a runway incursion involving an American Airlines (AA) Boeing 777 and Delta Air Lines Boeing 737 at John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York, US.

On January 13, 2023, an American Airlines Boeing 777-200, registered as N754AN, crossed an active runway as it was taxiing to begin its take-off roll to depart on flight AA106 to London Heathrow Airport (LHR). The same runway was being used by a Delta Air Lines Boeing 737-900ER, registered as N914DU, which had begun its take-off roll.

The AA aircraft was cleared by Air Traffic Control (ATC) to cross runway 31L at taxiway K. However, the 777’s flight crew crossed runway 4L at taxiway J, where it proceeded to lineup to depart from runway 31L, which was inactive at the time. The Delta Boeing 737 was forced to abort its take-off attempt and subsequently, the narrowbody jet taxied to the gate.

Additionally, the NTSB reiterated that it recommended the FAA require passenger airlines to have CVRs capable of recording 25 hours of audio, replacing the current two-hour recording.

Boy. Absolutely no interest in this thread? “Nothing to see here”? (What was said after the AC very near miss at SFO).

[cdnavater]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 20443067ac

The first officer on American Airlines Flight 106, which was involved in a runway incursion Friday night at Kennedy International Airport, was flying her first flight with new cockpit procedures, a source said.

The first officer, an experienced 737 pilot, was making her first 777 flight after 100 hours of training flights that did not include the new procedures.

“She has all this data to analyze and input, plus she has a new task on top of all that,” the source said. “She was overwhelmed.”

Poor baby.

In the incident, Flight 106 crossed a runway about 1,000 feet in front of Delta Air LinesDAL +1.1% Flight 1943, which had to abort its takeoff. The Delta plane returned to the gate. The American plane, its pilots unaware of the close call, continued to London. No one was injured. Air traffic controller communications indicate that Flight 106 was on the wrong runway at the time.

Many have questioned why the American crew did not return to the gate after the incursion. The reason is that they had no knowledge of the seriousness of the incident, the source said. After the incident occurred, controllers gave the pilots a number to call.

The crew didn’t understand the gravity of what occurred until they got to London,” the source said. “That is when they realized what happened. Until then, they didn’t know there had been a runway incursion.”

Although the first officer was experienced on the Boeing 737, “she was brand new in that airplane,” said the source. “She had just read the 35-page bulletin that changes procedures.”

The captain, meanwhile, had to make a left turn and then a right turn to get on the runway, and so did not have sufficient visibility to see stop bar lights on the runway. The captain was in fact on his way to another runway. A third pilot in the cockpit also could not see the lights.

Must be JFK’s fault?

At the time of the incident, the pilots had just switched to the tower frequency from the American ground tower. “They never heard Delta cleared for takeoff,” the source said. “Delta was cleared for takeoff before they switched over.”

Source a union rep?

Talk about spin.

Ok, your initial posts called for firing of the pilots, for not protecting the CVR, you edited your post just before I quoted it.
I responded that the CVR is supposed to be for aviation safety, and should be protected from being used for any purpose other than safety, ie firing of pilots.
You then post an article that clearly indicates they would have no reason to overwrite CVR, they didn’t even know they messed up. It would have been overwritten by the time they got where they were going.

[digits_]

Why do safety discussions need to be recorded?

Is anyone surprised a crew would not want to voluntarily participate in such a recorded interrogation in such a litigious country?

[rookiepilot]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 20443067ac

The first officer on American Airlines Flight 106, which was involved in a runway incursion Friday night at Kennedy International Airport, was flying her first flight with new cockpit procedures, a source said.

The first officer, an experienced 737 pilot, was making her first 777 flight after 100 hours of training flights that did not include the new procedures.

“She has all this data to analyze and input, plus she has a new task on top of all that,” the source said. “She was overwhelmed.”

Poor baby.

In the incident, Flight 106 crossed a runway about 1,000 feet in front of Delta Air LinesDAL +1.1% Flight 1943, which had to abort its takeoff. The Delta plane returned to the gate. The American plane, its pilots unaware of the close call, continued to London. No one was injured. Air traffic controller communications indicate that Flight 106 was on the wrong runway at the time.

Many have questioned why the American crew did not return to the gate after the incursion. The reason is that they had no knowledge of the seriousness of the incident, the source said. After the incident occurred, controllers gave the pilots a number to call.

The crew didn’t understand the gravity of what occurred until they got to London,” the source said. “That is when they realized what happened. Until then, they didn’t know there had been a runway incursion.”

Although the first officer was experienced on the Boeing 737, “she was brand new in that airplane,” said the source. “She had just read the 35-page bulletin that changes procedures.”

The captain, meanwhile, had to make a left turn and then a right turn to get on the runway, and so did not have sufficient visibility to see stop bar lights on the runway. The captain was in fact on his way to another runway. A third pilot in the cockpit also could not see the lights.

Must be JFK’s fault?

At the time of the incident, the pilots had just switched to the tower frequency from the American ground tower. “They never heard Delta cleared for takeoff,” the source said. “Delta was cleared for takeoff before they switched over.”

Source a union rep?

Talk about spin.

Ok, your initial posts called for firing of the pilots, for not protecting the CVR, you edited your post just before I quoted it.
I responded that the CVR is supposed to be for aviation safety, and should be protected from being used for any purpose other than safety, ie firing of pilots.
You then post an article that clearly indicates they would have no reason to overwrite CVR, they didn’t even know they messed up. It would have been overwritten by the time they got where they were going.

Are you high? That’s the only intelligent comment you can make on this is about what I wrote?

Of course a CVR should be used to fire incompetent pilots. And lawsuits. Darn right.

There are a million pilots. I’m not going out of my way to protect incompetence.

The question is why would any of you defend one that incompetent.

I care about aviation safety. Couldn’t give a crap about their careers or reputations. Goes for that AC too.

Refusal to cooperate? Hang em high. No one forced anyone to choose a job with high degree of public trust.

I don’t believe in the fifth amendment either. Talk or rot in jail.

I wouldn’t even have noticed the story if the crew hadn’t refused to cooperate. Makes them look….really really bad.

[rookiepilot]

Why do safety discussions need to be recorded?

Is anyone surprised a crew would not want to voluntarily participate in such a recorded interrogation in such a litigious country?

Would you hire these pilots? Want them flying your family?

[cdnavater]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/20 ... 20443067ac

The first officer on American Airlines Flight 106, which was involved in a runway incursion Friday night at Kennedy International Airport, was flying her first flight with new cockpit procedures, a source said.

The first officer, an experienced 737 pilot, was making her first 777 flight after 100 hours of training flights that did not include the new procedures.

“She has all this data to analyze and input, plus she has a new task on top of all that,” the source said. “She was overwhelmed.”

Poor baby.

In the incident, Flight 106 crossed a runway about 1,000 feet in front of Delta Air LinesDAL +1.1% Flight 1943, which had to abort its takeoff. The Delta plane returned to the gate. The American plane, its pilots unaware of the close call, continued to London. No one was injured. Air traffic controller communications indicate that Flight 106 was on the wrong runway at the time.

Many have questioned why the American crew did not return to the gate after the incursion. The reason is that they had no knowledge of the seriousness of the incident, the source said. After the incident occurred, controllers gave the pilots a number to call.

The crew didn’t understand the gravity of what occurred until they got to London,” the source said. “That is when they realized what happened. Until then, they didn’t know there had been a runway incursion.”

Although the first officer was experienced on the Boeing 737, “she was brand new in that airplane,” said the source. “She had just read the 35-page bulletin that changes procedures.”

The captain, meanwhile, had to make a left turn and then a right turn to get on the runway, and so did not have sufficient visibility to see stop bar lights on the runway. The captain was in fact on his way to another runway. A third pilot in the cockpit also could not see the lights.

Must be JFK’s fault?

At the time of the incident, the pilots had just switched to the tower frequency from the American ground tower. “They never heard Delta cleared for takeoff,” the source said. “Delta was cleared for takeoff before they switched over.”

Source a union rep?

Talk about spin.

Ok, your initial posts called for firing of the pilots, for not protecting the CVR, you edited your post just before I quoted it.
I responded that the CVR is supposed to be for aviation safety, and should be protected from being used for any purpose other than safety, ie firing of pilots.
You then post an article that clearly indicates they would have no reason to overwrite CVR, they didn’t even know they messed up. It would have been overwritten by the time they got where they were going.

Are you high? That’s the only intelligent comment you can make on this is about what I wrote?

Of course a CVR should be used to fire incompetent pilots. And lawsuits. Darn right.

There are a million pilots. I’m not going out of my way to protect incompetence.

The question is why would any of you defend one that incompetent.

Are you retarded? Don’t answer that I already know the answer.
If you don’t protect the recordings from nefarious use, pilots will disable them, that is how it will go.


“This is exactly why the Aeronautics Act requires updating on the matter of protection of data. Having conversations and flight data monitored and evaluated out of context for possible disciplinary action by those who may have motivations other than safety represents a substantial risk to flight safety.

“ALPA works tirelessly to enhance air safety through unbiased, fact-based evaluation of airline safety and security issues, and we will continue working with our fellow aviation stakeholders to ensure the airline industry remains as safe as possible.

“Flight safety should be the only consideration when examining recordings.”

[rookiepilot]

Ok, your initial posts called for firing of the pilots, for not protecting the CVR, you edited your post just before I quoted it.
I responded that the CVR is supposed to be for aviation safety, and should be protected from being used for any purpose other than safety, ie firing of pilots.
You then post an article that clearly indicates they would have no reason to overwrite CVR, they didn’t even know they messed up. It would have been overwritten by the time they got where they were going.

Are you high? That’s the only intelligent comment you can make on this is about what I wrote?

Of course a CVR should be used to fire incompetent pilots. And lawsuits. Darn right.

There are a million pilots. I’m not going out of my way to protect incompetence.

The question is why would any of you defend one that incompetent.

Are you retarded? Don’t answer that I already know the answer.
If you don’t protect the recordings from nefarious use, pilots will disable them, that is how it will go.


“This is exactly why the Aeronautics Act requires updating on the matter of protection of data. Having conversations and flight data monitored and evaluated out of context for possible disciplinary action by those who may have motivations other than safety represents a substantial risk to flight safety.

“ALPA works tirelessly to enhance air safety through unbiased, fact-based evaluation of airline safety and security issues, and we will continue working with our fellow aviation stakeholders to ensure the airline industry remains as safe as possible.

“Flight safety should be the only consideration when examining recordings.”

Do you work for the ALPA?

Oh. And don’t fly when high. Free advice.

I’d really like to know what was on that CVR now.

[cdnavater]

Are you high? That’s the only intelligent comment you can make on this is about what I wrote?

Of course a CVR should be used to fire incompetent pilots. And lawsuits. Darn right.

There are a million pilots. I’m not going out of my way to protect incompetence.

The question is why would any of you defend one that incompetent.

Are you retarded? Don’t answer that I already know the answer.
If you don’t protect the recordings from nefarious use, pilots will disable them, that is how it will go.


“This is exactly why the Aeronautics Act requires updating on the matter of protection of data. Having conversations and flight data monitored and evaluated out of context for possible disciplinary action by those who may have motivations other than safety represents a substantial risk to flight safety.

“ALPA works tirelessly to enhance air safety through unbiased, fact-based evaluation of airline safety and security issues, and we will continue working with our fellow aviation stakeholders to ensure the airline industry remains as safe as possible.

“Flight safety should be the only consideration when examining recordings.”

Do you work for the ALPA?

So, you’d be ok with microphones monitoring your every move while you’re at work, and a data recorder on your keyboard?

[rookiepilot]

Are you retarded? Don’t answer that I already know the answer.
If you don’t protect the recordings from nefarious use, pilots will disable them, that is how it will go.


“This is exactly why the Aeronautics Act requires updating on the matter of protection of data. Having conversations and flight data monitored and evaluated out of context for possible disciplinary action by those who may have motivations other than safety represents a substantial risk to flight safety.

“ALPA works tirelessly to enhance air safety through unbiased, fact-based evaluation of airline safety and security issues, and we will continue working with our fellow aviation stakeholders to ensure the airline industry remains as safe as possible.

“Flight safety should be the only consideration when examining recordings.”

Do you work for the ALPA?

So, you’d be ok with microphones monitoring your every move while you’re at work, and a data recorder on your keyboard?

Kinda lame you are far more concerned with your privacy than talking about a very serious incident— at least to me. And to the NTSB. You’re in a position of high public safety, visibility and trust.

The refusal of the crew to cooperate with a safety investigation, and that decision supported by their union is nuts.

If that’s the norm, you bet every burp and fart you have ought be recorded.

[cdnavater]

Are you high? That’s the only intelligent comment you can make on this is about what I wrote?

Of course a CVR should be used to fire incompetent pilots. And lawsuits. Darn right.

There are a million pilots. I’m not going out of my way to protect incompetence.

The question is why would any of you defend one that incompetent.

I care about aviation safety. Couldn’t give a crap about their careers or reputations. Goes for that AC too.

Refusal to cooperate? Hang em high. No one forced anyone to choose a job with high degree of public trust.

I don’t believe in the fifth amendment either. Talk or rot in jail.

I wouldn’t even have noticed the story if the crew hadn’t refused to cooperate. Makes them look….really really bad.

You are the reason we fight the use of the cvr, we trust financial advisers, maybe we should monitor you fuckers, make sure you’re not screwing with peoples livelihoods.

[rookiepilot]

Are you high? That’s the only intelligent comment you can make on this is about what I wrote?

Of course a CVR should be used to fire incompetent pilots. And lawsuits. Darn right.

There are a million pilots. I’m not going out of my way to protect incompetence.

The question is why would any of you defend one that incompetent.

I care about aviation safety. Couldn’t give a crap about their careers or reputations. Goes for that AC too.

Refusal to cooperate? Hang em high. No one forced anyone to choose a job with high degree of public trust.

I don’t believe in the fifth amendment either. Talk or rot in jail.

I wouldn’t even have noticed the story if the crew hadn’t refused to cooperate. Makes them look….really really bad.

You are the reason we fight the use of the cvr, we trust financial advisers, maybe we should monitor you fuckers, make sure you’re not screwing with peoples livelihoods.

How do you taxi intending to line up on a runway at JFK that’s inactive, 90 degrees from the active, by crossing the active without a clearance, and ignoring the runway incursion warning lights lit up like the fourth of July?

That’s a good one. Maybe you could teach me.

[digits_]

Why do safety discussions need to be recorded?

Is anyone surprised a crew would not want to voluntarily participate in such a recorded interrogation in such a litigious country?

Would you hire these pilots? Want them flying your family?

You are changing the topic of conversation. They made a serious mistake. It would be worth investigating why that happened. I don't get why the NTSB would insist on recording everything.

If they aren't happy with the written statement, then have a conversation and take notes.

If that's not possible, then you might as well just hand it over to a prosecutor and get lawyers involved. The main purpose of a safety investigation is to avoid having prosecutors and lawyers involved, so all parties can communicate honestly. At least, that's how it should be.

If you want to use my words against me, then I will choose them very carefully and you won't get much out of me. If you want to genuinely improve the safety system, then I will explain where I went wrong and why I think I made those mistakes. That's only human I would say.

[cdnavater]

Do you work for the ALPA?

So, you’d be ok with microphones monitoring your every move while you’re at work, and a data recorder on your keyboard?

Kinda lame you are far more concerned with your privacy than talking about a very serious incident— at least to me. And to the NTSB. You’re in a position of high public safety, visibility and trust.

The refusal of the crew to cooperate with a safety investigation, and that decision supported by their union is nuts.

If that’s the norm, you bet every burp and fart you have ought be recorded.

You clearly have no fucken clue, safety is enhanced if there is non punitive methods, if there is punishment involved, people will do what is necessary to protect themselves and your hang ‘‘em high mentality is why we need protection.
They cooperated, the union said they would allow court recording just not digital voice record, they have provided statements, the cvr is overwritten, which I believe is your hang up, you got it in your head it was on purpose and can’t seem to let that idea go

[rookiepilot]

The next student pilot who gets a Cador for taxiing 6 feet off the ramp in Langley BC, will get way more crap thrown on him for being a “stupid pilot”, than will be seen on this thread.