Recruiting Video

[photofly]

The real question here is, "Why are these other people so against you getting better pay and working conditions? What is their motivation to see you make less?"

How about explaining (yes, I am looking at you photofly and rookiepilot) how pilots getting paid more directly hurts you and why you are so against it?

I"m not against pilots getting paid more. I certainly don't want them to get paid less. What I did do was post some suggestions about why the pilot career ladder doesn't lend itself naturally to higher salaries, and how that might change You might not agree or find them practical or helpful, but at least I put some effort into thinking about it.

I also I don't think comparisons with other jobs are very helpful. Every job has pros and cons, and every job-holder (yes, every single one!) believes with complete sincerity that they deserve more, and their job is uniquely challenging and under-appreciated. Everyone who does any job for long enough builds up a long list of resentments and issues. That's human nature. Ripplerock wrote convincingly about some of the downsides of this career. There are upsides too.

Hopefully airline pilots can make a more compelling case for better pay than "the universe owes us more than people who do <x> just 'because'". There's no ethical or moral scale of who gets paid what, and there's no arbiter to appeal to on that basis.

[rookiepilot]

During the 2008/09 recession. Delta management came looking for concessions from the pilots claiming it was an existential crisis. The union caved and gave somewhere in the area of $600M in total concessions. Not long after (a month or two from what I recall the Delta MEC member telling me) the company announced bonuses totalling around $600M for their executives, during an earnings call. Quite the coincidence, no? He told me that since that moment, the Union took the stance of "We will bankrupt the company before we give anymore concessions".

The results of a less humble and more hardline approach speak for themselves.

Humility may have served you well during your life and small business ventures, Rookie. I'm not saying it should be ignored. But in the world of large airlines and multi billion dollar negotiations, humility won't get you very far.

And while you're claiming to be the victim of trolling, maybe take a look in the mirror and reflect as to the reason why this has been a constant response to many of your posts. If it smells everywhere you go, check under your own shoe. Or so they say.

You are confusing assertive, professional negotiation, which I endorse, with personal humility in individual interactions.

2 different things.

[Tbayer2021]

On the topic of you not liking the delivery of our message. You couldn't be a larger hypocrite if you tried. You've spent so long opining about a subject you clearly don't know about with a stereotypical "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" message that it borders on comedy. You're literally the walking definition of a boomer. Thinking the world hasn't changed or that whatever worked for you before must surely work elsewhere. Without taking the time to understand why things are the way they are. You just expect others to listen simply because you're a successful business owner. Maybe there is a little bit more to the equation than you realize and either keep your mouth shut if you don't know, or take the time to ask why things are the way they are before offering outdated or irrelevant opinions.

What are you going to do about your situation Tbayer?

Many years ago I was in a somewhat similar situation. I was an employee in an industry with no future, in which my hours were certain to go up and my compensation down.

I chose to uproot everything, roll the dice, move across the country, and start my business on a shoestring. It was insanely risky, insanely stressful, but…it worked. Bigly.

I didn’t bitch and whine on the Internet, and troll people willing to offer advice, I’ll tell you that much.

What are you going to do? What’s your long term plan?

Have you not noticed that I've never asked you to explain yourself to me? Thats because you don't owe me anything, not even an explanation. On that same tune, I don't owe you a single thing. Specially not to someone that sees nothing wrong with opining about a subject they clearly know very little, if anything about. But I'll indulge you because you clearly assume that anyone who bitches on avcanada must not be doing anything else. I guess by that logic I should be questioning all your claims.

Anyways. I'm brand new at my current outfit and have some things to learn before I join the union and help with change initiatives. But I was part of it at my previous job and volunteered my time towards union/pilot causes.

On a more personal note, I believe firmly in financial independence from your employer. Because I believe one should love their job, but not their employer. Following that logic, I've been an investor since I was 18 and currently have a few properties to my name that make me rent money every month. I also trade options with my money. But don't worry, I'm not doing anything naked so no need to lecture me on the risks of that. Just selling covered calls on very blue chip stocks, which translates to low premiums, I know. But it substantially decreases my risk. I think the riskiest options I do is buying deep in the money calls with high Delta. But even that isn't risky with non volatile stocks.

But you know what I don't do? I don't go around professional traders telling them how to do their job simply because I know how to do a very specific thing. I don't pontificate to land developers simply because I've found success with a few properties.

Again, maybe the reason you find so many not taking a liking to your comments is more to do with your delivery than your message. Because from the first time I remember seeing your posts, you come off as an arrogant, condescending individual. It was the cherry on top to see you admitting that you have no idea how the one thing that affects everything from pay to quality of life for a pilot, works. Yet you see thing wrong with telling us your opinions on what we should do. Stay in your lane and feel free to pontificate on whatever the @#$! you've been so successful at.

[rookiepilot]

On the topic of you not liking the delivery of our message. You couldn't be a larger hypocrite if you tried. You've spent so long opining about a subject you clearly don't know about with a stereotypical "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" message that it borders on comedy. You're literally the walking definition of a boomer. Thinking the world hasn't changed or that whatever worked for you before must surely work elsewhere. Without taking the time to understand why things are the way they are. You just expect others to listen simply because you're a successful business owner. Maybe there is a little bit more to the equation than you realize and either keep your mouth shut if you don't know, or take the time to ask why things are the way they are before offering outdated or irrelevant opinions.

What are you going to do about your situation Tbayer?

Many years ago I was in a somewhat similar situation. I was an employee in an industry with no future, in which my hours were certain to go up and my compensation down.

I chose to uproot everything, roll the dice, move across the country, and start my business on a shoestring. It was insanely risky, insanely stressful, but…it worked. Bigly.

I didn’t bitch and whine on the Internet, and troll people willing to offer advice, I’ll tell you that much.

What are you going to do? What’s your long term plan?

Have you not noticed that I've never asked you to explain yourself to me? Thats because you don't owe me anything, not even an explanation. On that same tune, I don't owe you a single thing. Specially not to someone that sees nothing wrong with opining about a subject they clearly know very little, if anything about. But I'll indulge you because you clearly assume that anyone who bitches on avcanada must not be doing anything else. I guess by that logic I should be questioning all your claims.

Anyways. I'm brand new at my current outfit and have some things to learn before I join the union and help with change initiatives. But I was part of it at my previous job and volunteered my time towards union/pilot causes.

On a more personal note, I believe firmly in financial independence from your employer. Because I believe one should love their job, but not their employer. Following that logic, I've been an investor since I was 18 and currently have a few properties to my name that make me rent money every month. I also trade options with my money. But don't worry, I'm not doing anything naked so no need to lecture me on the risks of that. Just selling covered calls on very blue chip stocks, which translates to low premiums, I know. But it substantially decreases my risk. I think the riskiest options I do is buying deep in the money calls with high Delta. But even that isn't risky with non volatile stocks.

But you know what I don't do? I don't go around professional traders telling them how to do their job simply because I know how to do a very specific thing. I don't pontificate to land developers simply because I've found success with a few properties.

Again, maybe the reason you find so many not taking a liking to your comments is more to do with your delivery than your message. Because from the first time I remember seeing your posts, you come off as an arrogant, condescending individual. It was the cherry on top to see you admitting that you have no idea how the one thing that affects everything from pay to quality of life for a pilot, works. Yet you see thing wrong with telling us your opinions on what we should do. Stay in your lane and feel free to pontificate on whatever the @#$! you've been so successful at.

Arrogant?

That is the issue with these posts. Egomaniac city.

When I see repeated posts that reek of “I far am MORE important than the doctors / nurses / paramedics / firefighters of the world, and should get paid more than any of them at 250 hours”, I get offended.

STFU with that attitude and I’ll stay out of this lane.

[Tbayer2021]

What are you going to do about your situation Tbayer?

Many years ago I was in a somewhat similar situation. I was an employee in an industry with no future, in which my hours were certain to go up and my compensation down.

I chose to uproot everything, roll the dice, move across the country, and start my business on a shoestring. It was insanely risky, insanely stressful, but…it worked. Bigly.

I didn’t bitch and whine on the Internet, and troll people willing to offer advice, I’ll tell you that much.

What are you going to do? What’s your long term plan?

Have you not noticed that I've never asked you to explain yourself to me? Thats because you don't owe me anything, not even an explanation. On that same tune, I don't owe you a single thing. Specially not to someone that sees nothing wrong with opining about a subject they clearly know very little, if anything about. But I'll indulge you because you clearly assume that anyone who bitches on avcanada must not be doing anything else. I guess by that logic I should be questioning all your claims.

Anyways. I'm brand new at my current outfit and have some things to learn before I join the union and help with change initiatives. But I was part of it at my previous job and volunteered my time towards union/pilot causes.

On a more personal note, I believe firmly in financial independence from your employer. Because I believe one should love their job, but not their employer. Following that logic, I've been an investor since I was 18 and currently have a few properties to my name that make me rent money every month. I also trade options with my money. But don't worry, I'm not doing anything naked so no need to lecture me on the risks of that. Just selling covered calls on very blue chip stocks, which translates to low premiums, I know. But it substantially decreases my risk. I think the riskiest options I do is buying deep in the money calls with high Delta. But even that isn't risky with non volatile stocks.

But you know what I don't do? I don't go around professional traders telling them how to do their job simply because I know how to do a very specific thing. I don't pontificate to land developers simply because I've found success with a few properties.

Again, maybe the reason you find so many not taking a liking to your comments is more to do with your delivery than your message. Because from the first time I remember seeing your posts, you come off as an arrogant, condescending individual. It was the cherry on top to see you admitting that you have no idea how the one thing that affects everything from pay to quality of life for a pilot, works. Yet you see thing wrong with telling us your opinions on what we should do. Stay in your lane and feel free to pontificate on whatever the @#$! you've been so successful at.

Arrogant?

That is the issue with these posts. Egomaniac city.

When I see repeated posts that reek of “I far am MORE important than the doctors / nurses / paramedics / firefighters of the world, and should get paid more than any of them at 250 hours”, I get offended.

STFU with that attitude and I’ll stay out of this lane.

Yes, arrogant and a multitude of other adjectives. You've admitted to not knowing basic facts about pilot employment in Canada and yet don't see anything wrong with continuing to talk about things you know nothing about.

[averageatbest]

Pilots deserve to be paid a salary that they can raise a family on.

We deserve to be paid more than a new manager at a McDonalds.

We deserve to have the ability to be at home and see our family more than a handful of times per month.

[rookiepilot]

Pilots deserve to be paid a salary that they can raise a family on.

We deserve to be paid more than a new manager at a McDonalds.

We deserve to have the ability to be at home and see our family more than a handful of times per month.

No one is disputing that.

Going after first responders and highly trained medical staff is not the way to gain support.

[averageatbest]

Pilots deserve to be paid a salary that they can raise a family on.

We deserve to be paid more than a new manager at a McDonalds.

We deserve to have the ability to be at home and see our family more than a handful of times per month.

No one is disputing that.

Going after first responders and highly trained medical staff is not the way to gain support.

First responders and "highly trained" medical staff are irrelevant to the conversation and this forum.

[rookiepilot]

Pilots deserve to be paid a salary that they can raise a family on.

We deserve to be paid more than a new manager at a McDonalds.

We deserve to have the ability to be at home and see our family more than a handful of times per month.

No one is disputing that.

Going after first responders and highly trained medical staff is not the way to gain support.

First responders and "highly trained" medical staff are irrelevant to the conversation and this forum.

Tell the posters that who say the pilot should be highest paid person on board the aircraft.

That is where you lost me.

[averageatbest]

Tell the posters that who say the pilot should be highest paid person on board the aircraft.

That is where you lost me.

Unless the CEO is on board, the pilots should be the highest paid employee on board.

Last I checked, airlines don't employ first responders or medical staff.

[rookiepilot]

Tell the posters that who say the pilot should be highest paid person on board the aircraft.

That is where you lost me.

Unless the CEO is on board, the pilots should be the highest paid employee on board.

Last I checked, airlines don't employ first responders or medical staff.

READ the other threads. Everyone is saying the PIC should be the highest paid PERSON on board. Including passengers!

[twa22]

Tell the posters that who say the pilot should be highest paid person on board the aircraft.

That is where you lost me.

Unless the CEO is on board, the pilots should be the highest paid employee on board.

Last I checked, airlines don't employ first responders or medical staff.

READ the other threads. Everyone is saying the PIC should be the highest paid PERSON on board. Including passengers!

Holy crap dude... do you understand that when someone says the PIC should be the highest paid person on board, that means the highest paid person who is WORKING on the aircraft, last I checked, a passenger is a paying customer who is not WORKING

I don't recall anyone saying that the PIC should be the highest paid person on board an aircraft at all times, including all the PAX, that's ludicrous... corporate aviation wouldn't exist if that were case, as probably 99% of paying customers on a private jet make far more then the PIC does

Get off the forums man, you're taking things way out of context

[Anonymouse]

Rookiepilot, I'm sure if you read through every single thread on avcanada you will eventually find someone who possibly implied thr PIC should be the best paid person on the planet.

But come on. None of us believe that. Grow up.

Your understanding of this industry is completely wrong. Experience means nothing without seniority, you can work your whole life and then a company folds and you're down to earning $57,000 a year. And going overseas isn't the answer. Not everyone wants to work in the middle east. What dies it say about canada if the best solution is to just get the hell out.

I'm so tired of people who aren't professional pilots coming onto a forum for professional pilots and telling them how they should feel about union negotiations that they have no stake in.

[rookiepilot]

.

[digits_]

Personally;

I am a little tired of almost every thread being hijacked

[Tbayer2021]

NOTED.

Personally;

I am a little tired of almost every thread being hijacked and becoming a rant on how horrible every company on the planet is.

I didn't realize this was only an airline union site not a diverse aviation site.

I don't know how you do it, Rookie. but your posts just keep getting dumber and dumber with every post. Just when you hit bedrock, you throwaway the shovel and ask for dynamite. Do you not realize the forum you're on? Let me make it clear for you, LARGE AIRLINE OPERATIONS and specifically WestJet. Even more specifically, a thread about a BS recruiting video made by the company in a pathetic attempt to make the job look attractive. The job is so attractive that one of the hand picked pilots has quit the company and started with AC a few weeks ago. If this is how a company man feels, it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate the general mood.

You want to talk about flying bug smashers? There is a place for that here as well, but it sure isn't at LARGE AIRLINE OPERATIONS.

[Canadaflyer46]

Why are people still conversing with this guy? He's not even a professional pilot, doesn't have any knowledge of how seniority works, and does nothing but talk down to everyone.
Back to the thread. The last ground school had 5 new hires in, the latest class has a grand total of ZERO. That's right. They had to cancel, sorry "postpone" the course. So now WJ can't find a single pilot willing to come here. All the while we lose 1 pilot every day on average. At this rate they will have to park planes soon.

[FlyAlberta]

Not much different for Encore even with the “retention” moa. Apparently 6 in the latest initial class.

Last year the plan was a class of 10 every 3 weeks. Then that changed to a class of 16 every month. Then a class of 10-12 a month. Now they’re lucky to run a full class.

[Tbayer2021]

Why are people still conversing with this guy? He's not even a professional pilot, doesn't have any knowledge of how seniority works, and does nothing but talk down to everyone.
Back to the thread. The last ground school had 5 new hires in, the latest class has a grand total of ZERO. That's right. They had to cancel, sorry "postpone" the course. So now WJ can't find a single pilot willing to come here. All the while we lose 1 pilot every day on average. At this rate they will have to park planes soon.

Honestly, based on how much he brags about being a "very successful" business owner. I'm starting to think he's a textbook case of being born on third base and thinking he hit a triple. Every self made person I know never brags about it, yet every single individual I've met that comes from generational wealth loves to brag about their money. It almost seems to be a way to internally cope with feelings of inadequacy.

But anyways, maybe this will be a wake up call for WJ management. Just mind blowing that they couldn't find a single person. Since companies only understand $$$ figures, maybe hurting their bottom line will get them to come to the table.

[digits_]

Back to the thread. The last ground school had 5 new hires in, the latest class has a grand total of ZERO. That's right. They had to cancel, sorry "postpone" the course. So now WJ can't find a single pilot willing to come here. All the while we lose 1 pilot every day on average. At this rate they will have to park planes soon.

They could easily fill the classes if they would drop the requirements to 250 hours. If they're not doing that, they might be using the 'lack of pilots' an excuse to reduce flying for other reasons (expecting recession, financial troubles, ...) while saving face.