whos going to brampton this september?

767 · Post by **767** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:26 pm

Hi folks, Im just wondering how many of you here are taking the flight college program this year at brampton flying club. I have handed in my application, waiting for my medical certificate to arrive, and then i need to work on the nonsense essay.

Puntzi Mountain · Post by **Puntzi Mountain** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:56 am

Hey buddy, are you smoking crack. I know for a fact, that the industry brass thinks very highly of the College and University programs. And considering some of the Major Airlines in the country are specifically asking that you have an aviation diploma or higher, i dont know where you get off saying they are a waste of time. My only guess is that maybe you were either underqualified or just to plain dumb to get into any of these programs. Sorry to rain on YOUR day, clunck.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:57 am

Puntzi Mountain wrote:Hey buddy, are you smoking crack. I know for a fact, that the industry brass thinks very highly of the College and University programs. And considering some of the Major Airlines in the country are specifically asking that you have an aviation diploma or higher, i dont know where you get off saying they are a waste of time. My only guess is that maybe you were either underqualified or just to plain dumb to get into any of these programs. Sorry to rain on YOUR day, clunck.

HAHAHAHA!!! The 3 post wonder asks 'who the hell are you'!

I think the point Clunk was trying to make is that unlike the diploma programs tell you, the paper isn't very highly valued until you hit the 1st tier Airlines. Sure it's one more thing to put on your resume, but don't expect it to throw open doors left and right. And no, Big Red is not going to hire you right out of any diploma program.

Unless you go through one of the subsidised programs in Ontario, it gets really expensive, really fast. It may not be economical it for everyone. There are pros and cons. I do believe that college programs turn out a more consistent quality of pilot, but that doesn't mean that private trained pilots can't be just as good or better.

Clunk, I think you need to put your comments into context. Not all of the diploma programs are really that worthless. I do agree that many of them have courses that are slightly less than useful, but there are a few good ones. One of the major things I've noticed is that it's better to go somewhere with the paper granting institution and the FTU are one and the same. The proffs (ie for ground school) are probably going to be more experienced, simply because they've been doing it for longer.

End clarifying rant.
<awaiting flaming>

short bus · Post by **short bus** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:08 pm

looks like puntzi just got "OWNED"

Puntzi Mountain · Post by **Puntzi Mountain** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:14 pm

Wow, i didnt realize i said that AC was going to hire a 250 wonder with a diploma..

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:17 pm

Puntzi Mountain wrote:Wow, i didnt realize i said that AC was going to hire a 250 wonder with a diploma..

You didn't, alot of the colleges do. Or atleast infer it until you've given them the money. Get all the facts on where you're going, talk to people who have gone there, not just the people who are taking your money. It may seem all roses and chocolate, but there are drawbacks to EVERY ftu. Don't be sheep, find out for yourself.

Puntzi Mountain · Post by **Puntzi Mountain** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:22 pm

Been there done that and graduated a few years ago.. and i was never told that just going to the program i would be guarenteed a job.. In fact they told us straight up first day that since 9/11 just happened chances are its gonna be tough when we graduate, and i agree a diploma or degree wont nessesarily get you a job at a small carrier, it will however look good on your resume, everything counts right?, plus you have something to fall back on if aviation doesnt work out.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:59 pm

How will an aviation diploma help you if aviation doesn't work out?

You right, once you apply to a major carrier the paper will help.

av8tor_assrope · Post by **av8tor_assrope** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:43 pm

djshan,

BFC isn't a bad place to train but honestly...that BFC diploma is worth just as much as the paper it's written on. BFC isn't considered a "REAL" college. By "REAL" I'm talking about government subsidized like Seneca, Sault, Confed, Sheridan, Humber yada yada yada. You'd be far better off spending that extra 9 grand or however much BFC tells you on some aircraft mechanics diploma...or mechanical engineering technology diploma……hell even business admin......from places mentioned above. Or better yet...give Embry Riddle a call. They'll give you 35/120 credits (towards a degree) just for having your cpl multi ifr. Or hell...go to York uni part-time and take some psychology or sociology courses......you'd really be getting a BANG for your buck......anybody who's been to York would know what I'm talking about.

Cheers

767 · Post by **767** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:16 pm

Im just wondering, how many of you want to work overseas? for eg. Singapore Airlines, cathay pacific, etc. And how many of you just want to cram yourself in Air canada??

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:18 pm

Djshan, I hope nobody has taken away you ergernise to start your training. I don't know about your school in peticular but as you can tell by the replies there are a lot of differant views in the industry about these programs. I this is the path you want to take I say go for it and don't let anybody change your mind (unless they attended your school and found it sub-standard). Good luck and hope to see you in the skies in a couple of years.

As for you Puntzi, I don't understand where you get the nerve to speak to anybody that way when you don't know their back ground. You have only been in the industry for only a couple of years and you "know" what is "desirable". Clunck has obviously been around a lot longer and in a better position to know then you are. Now it is a free world and you have the right to disagree but do it with respect and tact. I hope you don't take the same kind of attitude to work with you or else your moneys going to be a waste. It's a small circle and your type gets found out quickly.

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:23 pm

clunckdriver wrote: I look forward to interviewing you one day, bring only what counts, that is a GENUINE log book and you ATPL.

Hehe clunk. soooo true. I didn't do the aviation diploma route, went and got a real engineering degree, the kind that comes complete with the little ring, and allows one to add letters to the name if so inclined. I've got a 'genuine' logbook, an atpl with ink that's been dry for a lotta years, and a 'genuine' degree from a reputable school.

I haven't done much in the way of applying for flying jobs over the last 15 years, but, a few tidbits I learned way back when. If writing a resume for a flying position, DO NOT mention the P.Eng it'll only hurt you. If you have a proper degree, mention it on the resume as a footnote, right under the the piece that lists your flying experience, and license(s). If you have extra alphabet soup to add to the name, dont, save it to impress the girls in the bar, it's going to only hurt you in the aviation game.

The reality of the business is this, and very few employers will actually admit it. They want pilots that are just that, pilots, experience, and no other qualifications. Folks that fit that demographic, especially if they have a young family, and a mortgage, are slaves to the cockpit. They have no qualifications other than being a pilot, and, cannot leave to go do something else. Even with the big airlines, anything other than flying experience and licesnses on the resume is just fluff to get past the first level of filters in the human resources department, but, once past that, it doesn't count anymore.

But now the million dollar question for ya clunk, as a point of reference for everybody else. Obviously you do the interviews for somebody. If I was to dust off a resume and send it off to you, ATPL 5000+, would you even notice the P.Eng, and if so, would it make any difference? Would you consider it a positive or a negative thing ? i think we already have an idea what you think of an 'aviation diploma', how about a real one, degree in aerospace engineering, complete with the P.Eng and associated jewlery.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:09 am

Quote:

" Hey buddy, are you smoking crack. I know for a fact, that the industry brass thinks very highly of the College and University programs. And considering some of the Major Airlines in the country are specifically asking that you have an aviation diploma or higher, i dont know where you get off saying they are a waste of time. My only guess is that maybe you were either underqualified or just to plain dumb to get into any of these programs. Sorry to rain on YOUR day, clunck. "

Puntzi Mountain, your arrogance is only exceed by your stupidity.

I like Clunk Driver would love to have some wannabe like you stroll into our group with that attitude.

You would soon learn where you belong.

Cat

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:31 am

Ok, thats it! AvCanada football match. Vancouver, next tuesday, old guys vs young guys. Old guys supply the ball. (you have more money)

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:45 am

I would argue against the last section of your post, Clunk. I know alot of kids in degre/diploma programs who aren't on the Mommy/Daddy bursary. I myself have a student debt that would probably be large enough for a down payment on a house. Did I work at McDonalds? No, I hate McDo so I found better jobs, but I know a few who did wrok in fast food and other such hell holes.

Also, not all of the programs are aimed at making airline pilots. Take Confederation, for example. They do floats, and if I'm not mistaken, skis too.

jetway · Post by **jetway** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:51 am

enjoyed this thread. reminds me of way back a buddy of mine went throught the subsidized college program ( which i think subsidizing stinks ) he was promised with a commercial licence would come a commercial job with an airline. They weren't far off actually. Now his son is doing the same thing 20 some years later. he also got the same promise. it hasn't happenned. Also, his son is a shit. (sorry buddy) he has the classic college attitude that unfortunaltely has tarnished a lot of good kids. anyhoo, do i have a degree? not yet. working on an unrelated one right now. Did i get an airline job without a degree? yep. after a long toil in this industry, i did. what's my point? work hard. fly hard. be smart. having a peice of paper has no bearing on your "smartness". knowing that helps. All those in college programs do not have an advantage over someone without one. my humble observation.

172pilot · Post by **172pilot** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:48 pm

Puntzi Mountain,

Don't waste your time and money with a college diploma. Go get a degree such as finance, engineering or accounting or whatever else interests you that is employable.

Also, how will an aviation diploma give you something to fall back on if aviation doesn't pan out?

I have a close friend who graduated from a diploma program. It got him zero interviews. He hit the road like everyone else and from what he's told me it didn't give him any advantage over someone without.

If you're looking to score points with AC or the oversea airlines, get a 4 year degree.

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:12 pm

172pilot wrote: I have a close friend who graduated from a diploma program. It got him zero interviews.

Way back in the high school days, I had a good friend that kind of got hooked on the idea of flying after I bought my first plane, and he went along on a lot of airplane rides. Obviously I went the 'self defined' route, evenutally he ended up in trinity college doing the aviation diploma program. Shortly after graduation, a minor medical issue came up. In the grand scheme of life, it was minor, but, for a pilot, it meant the loss of the Cat 1 medical, irrevocably. The aviation diploma was worthless at that point, worth even less than commercial pilot license without a medical to go with it. In the end, he went thru the program at BCIT, and spent 20 odd years pulling wrenches for Jazz (and it's pre merger predecessors).

I had the pleasure today of talking to another pilot currently out of the loop with big red on medical leave. Again, on the grand scheme of things, the problem was minor and borderline trivial to overall health, but, it was a disqualification item for the Cat 1 medical. 5 years later, he's not flying at present, altho there is a light at the end of his tunnel. He was lucky, with the tier 1 and 2 folks you get insurance coverage for such events. That isn't likely to be part of the benefits for the first 10 years in airplanes. Accidentally poke an eye out while fishing, and you'll quickly discover what it's like to be in the unskilled labor market with a physical impairment. Not a fun way to go thru life, much better off with some sort of professional qualification.

The bottom line, a pilots job is risk management. Investing in an education that's dependant on the pilot license and medical is just bad risk management after you toss 40 grand and a year into the licenses. You are far better off to spend the time/money/effort on another field of interest, and start the process of managing the risks of life early on. The broader knowledge base will make you a better pilot too.

Canada14 · Post by **Canada14** » Tue May 02, 2006 9:49 pm

what about the people who can;t get into universities because of
A. financially they cant afford it and only have the coin for flying.
or
B. Do not have the qualifications to get into a University.

Looking at many pilot applicaitons for companies they dont even ask what school you attended for flying it just wants you to state your hours. For someone wanting to fly Coperate or Airlines is a College Diploma going to score them points? If they do not have that 4yr degree?

av8tor_assrope · Post by **av8tor_assrope** » Tue May 02, 2006 10:01 pm

screw the degree and the diploma. invest in fur or gold...or both.....and become a pimp.

cheers

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Wed May 03, 2006 1:13 pm

Canada14 wrote:what about the people who can;t get into universities because of
A. financially they cant afford it and only have the coin for flying.
or
B. Do not have the qualifications to get into a University.

Looking at many pilot applicaitons for companies they dont even ask what school you attended for flying it just wants you to state your hours. For someone wanting to fly Coperate or Airlines is a College Diploma going to score them points? If they do not have that 4yr degree?

University is cheaper than flying. Anyone can get in. It's really not that hard, mature student status, entrance exams, there are tons of ways in.

Is it worth while? Depends on what you want to do...

Degrassi · Post by **Degrassi** » Thu May 04, 2006 8:26 pm

Hey mellow... can you explain to me why your saying diploma/degree programs arent any good for anyone... yet your a current student at one of these programs... OH but this makes sense considering you have been known to bad mouth your program up and down.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Fri May 05, 2006 1:08 am

mellow_pilot wrote:
Canada14 wrote:what about the people who can;t get into universities because of
A. financially they cant afford it and only have the coin for flying.
or
B. Do not have the qualifications to get into a University.

Looking at many pilot applicaitons for companies they dont even ask what school you attended for flying it just wants you to state your hours. For someone wanting to fly Coperate or Airlines is a College Diploma going to score them points? If they do not have that 4yr degree?
University is cheaper than flying. Anyone can get in. It's really not that hard, mature student status, entrance exams, there are tons of ways in.

Is it worth while? Depends on what you want to do...

Where does it say they are no good for any one? I'm you're right, I am in one. I need a degree and I like aviation, seemed a natural way to go. As for bad mouthing up and down, I've said plenty of times that there are good and bad points to any FTU, college, private, whatever. I've had a great time in college programs and I truly believe that I learned more there than I would have at a private FTU.

I've been to FTU's that were interested only in making money, I've been to ones that are truly interested in making good pilots. I've seen instructors that don't know their empanage from a hole in the ground and I've had instructors that blow you away everytime you talk to them.

The fact that some people only latch onto the negative things I've said about certain FTUs just shows that they are not paying attention, or are just looking for a reason to hate.

All I've ever tried to do is provide facts and honest opinions to new-comers so that there is a balance to the "we're the best freaking FTU in Canada, all our students end up at Big Red" line that most places pimp.

I was never told the whole truth and I sure wish I had gotten the straight goods. I don't think it really would have changed my path, but it would have been nice to know everything up front.

I find it funny that most students will bitch about their FTU with others at the school, but then turn around and defend it like it was their hometown hockey team with outsiders. I have no quams about telling the truth. But then I also don't plan on buying PPCs, working for free, or padding my log book. I don't know why honesty is so frowned upon, I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.

If you want to be a pilot and need a degree for what you want to do, great, do an Aviation program if you like. If you want to go to a subsidised program in Ontario to save a little coin, fine, makes sense. But it's not all roses... arm yourself with all the knowledge you can.

P.S. If you have decided you don't like me without actually taking the time to get to know me, I'm a sarcastic bastard, so chances are whatever I said to piss you off, was in jest. ISTP can back me up on that one

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:10 am

I gotta agree, if you want a degree, get it in ANYTHING but aviation, and get the licences and ratings on your own at an FTU.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:52 am

Who are you agreeing with Hedely?

And just to be clear, I don't think that there is anywhere in Canada that gives out a degree in 'aviation'. There are aviation diplomas from colleges, but all the degrees are in business management or some other feild. No university that I know of hands out a Bachelor of Cessna.

whos going to brampton this september?

whos going to brampton this september?

Excuse me?

Re: Excuse me?

right

Re: right

ok

hey mellow