A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

[khedrei]

I dont know if there will be a definitive answer on the debate you are having. Where will the pilots go if wages are raised and how much is enough to live in Canada? Who really knows?

One thing is for sure, if there are not enough pilots, it doesn't matter how high wages are.

I look at my situation. I have a decent amount of experience and an ATPL. But I have no turbine time, and not much multi. The bigger carriers dont want me but I will NOT go work for minimum wage up north or for the regionals in a major city making only slightly more. I won't even apply. I will continue to work for myself doing whatever jobs I want and make my own schedule. Im not making a whole lot more but im working a whole lot less. And I'm fine with it.

How many people out there are like me who could be lured in with higher wages? My guess is probably not that many so I doubt enough to solve the problem. But perhaps enough to make a dent? And perhaps there are a bunch of others with the credentials who left the industry years ago due to poor wages and working conditions that could be lured back? I dont know the answer to that either. I cant see paying higher wages as a bad thing, for retention of employees and less waste of training costs alone.

Something has to give though. Forget trying to bring back expats, paying pilots bare minimum wages will see the industry collapse eventually from lack of new pilots signing up. If we think the problem is bad now, just wait 3 years when the industry is expecting to see the graduates from all the people who didn't enroll during the pandemic cause the industry was in the toilet. These companies have always been reactive when they need to be proactive.

[digits_]

It’s probably worth adding that most of the things that make Canada attractive to pilots (other than money) are not under the control of airlines but in the hands of government. If pilots’ true priorities were having more experienced crew then they would campaign for work visas to be given freely to experienced foreign pilots. Canada would be flooded with very experienced crews from abroad, and the experience level in Canadian flight decks would go up enormously. Of course that’s not what pilots want because at the same time salaries would go down. Again - there’s no link between salaries and experience.

I don't think many experienced pilots would be happy to leave their (significantly?) higher salaries to move to Canada to make 70k/year. Some might, but I doubt it will be much. Canada already offers quite a lot of immigration streams where a lot of pilots abroad would quailfy for. A lot of them have university degrees and likely some kind of other experience.

However, by your logic, why wouldn't other countries raise the salaries in that case to prevent pilots to leave for Canada?

[rookiepilot]

MODs.

This is a 705 airline / industry/ union thread. It belongs in the airline section, as does every other similar thread. Please move it there.

Let’s keep general for aviation topics.

Thank you.

No!

This affects everyone in aviation.

And it doesn’t affect you.

Thought about it. You’re right. My apologies. Important discussion.

[TheOriginalMagicMike]

Alpa merging with acpa will help raise the bar for the industry

[photofly]

It’s probably worth adding that most of the things that make Canada attractive to pilots (other than money) are not under the control of airlines but in the hands of government. If pilots’ true priorities were having more experienced crew then they would campaign for work visas to be given freely to experienced foreign pilots. Canada would be flooded with very experienced crews from abroad, and the experience level in Canadian flight decks would go up enormously. Of course that’s not what pilots want because at the same time salaries would go down. Again - there’s no link between salaries and experience.

I don't think many experienced pilots would be happy to leave their (significantly?) higher salaries to move to Canada to make 70k/year. Some might, but I doubt it will be much. Canada already offers quite a lot of immigration streams where a lot of pilots abroad would quailfy for. A lot of them have university degrees and likely some kind of other experience.

Look at the fuss we made about Sunwing and the FLVC pilots from Poland, wasn't it? That was allowing experienced foreign flight crew to lend their experience to Canada, resulting in more accumulated flight hours in Canadian flight decks; from a "experience equals safety" point of view it was a no-brainer, but we didn't like it because it was "cheap" labour.

However, by your logic, why wouldn't other countries raise the salaries in that case to prevent pilots to leave for Canada?

They would. For the same reason that if Canadian pilots were permitted to work in the US without restrictions, salaries in Canada would go up to compensate.

There's a fixed amount of flight experience in the world. You can spread it around differently (either between different airlines, within one country, or between different countries, internationally) with different incentives but you can't create it with extra money. And when you try to influence where the experience goes you have to remember you're not the only player - other airlines and other countries have opportunities to respond to your attempted influence, in ways that reduce the effect of those changes.

Example: Delta just put up their pay. You might think that would allow them to attract experienced flight crew from American Airlines. But no, AA puts up their pay to match.

[digits_]

It’s probably worth adding that most of the things that make Canada attractive to pilots (other than money) are not under the control of airlines but in the hands of government. If pilots’ true priorities were having more experienced crew then they would campaign for work visas to be given freely to experienced foreign pilots. Canada would be flooded with very experienced crews from abroad, and the experience level in Canadian flight decks would go up enormously. Of course that’s not what pilots want because at the same time salaries would go down. Again - there’s no link between salaries and experience.

I don't think many experienced pilots would be happy to leave their (significantly?) higher salaries to move to Canada to make 70k/year. Some might, but I doubt it will be much. Canada already offers quite a lot of immigration streams where a lot of pilots abroad would quailfy for. A lot of them have university degrees and likely some kind of other experience.

Look at the fuss we made about Sunwing and the FLVC pilots from Poland, wasn't it? That was allowing experienced foreign flight crew to lend their experience to Canada, resulting in more accumulated flight hours in Canadian flight decks; from a "experience equals safety" point of view it was a no-brainer, but we didn't like it because it was "cheap" labour.

They made more than the Canadian pilots in the same company. Do you think they would have come over for 70k/year? That's what those same pilots would have made if they would have gotten hired at AC, or even less at Sunwing. They were temporarily leasing pilots. At a higher cost than local pilots.

This translates to "To prove that paying pilots more will not give us more experienced pilots, we will now pay these experienced pilots more to get them to work for us for 6 months".

However, by your logic, why wouldn't other countries raise the salaries in that case to prevent pilots to leave for Canada?

They would. For the same reason that if Canadian pilots were permitted to work in the US without restrictions, salaries in Canada would go up to compensate.

There's a fixed amount of flight experience in the world. You can spread it around differently (either between different airlines, within one country, or between different countries, internationally) with different incentives but you can't create it with extra money. And when you try to influence where the experience goes you have to remember you're not the only player - other airlines and other countries have opportunities to respond to your attempted influence, in ways that reduce the effect of those changes.

Example: Delta just put up their pay. You might think that would allow them to attract experienced flight crew from American Airlines. But no, AA puts up their pay to match.

Again, I don't disagree with that. I just think Canada is in a position to quite cheaply attract more experienced pilots by raising wages.
In your US example the crazy salaries are happening at the highest paid companies. And that makes sense, at that level you can fully see the effect of running out of experienced pilots, and trying to flip flop them around between companies.

On a global scale, Canada is near the bottom of the list of experienced pilot pay. The top 10 paying airlines (suchas Qatar, Catahy, ...) won't care one iota if Canada moved up from position 90 to 70 by doubling or trippling their wages. The competition for those few pilots will be relatively small.

It's a combination of salary and non-salary attractions that would compell expats to return home. Don't underestimate the urge to return home to your extended family and your home country. It won't apply to every expat of cours, but likely a significant bunch.

[photofly]

They made more than the Canadian pilots in the same company. Do you think they would have come over for 70k/year? That's what those same pilots would have made if they would have gotten hired at AC, or even less at Sunwing. They were temporarily leasing pilots. At a higher cost than local pilots.

It doesn't matter how little or how much they would or wouldn't have accepted, or whether they were leased, borrowed or purchased through a share-buyback programme. They could even have flown for free. Because they were denied permission to fly Canadian flights, their experience was not permitted to increase the pool of experience of pilots flying Canadian flights. If you believe that safety is improved by having more experienced crews, then you must accept that safety was compromised by not allowing them to fly here.

I just think Canada is in a position to quite cheaply attract more experienced pilots by raising wages.

From where would these more experienced pilots come?

[digits_]

They made more than the Canadian pilots in the same company. Do you think they would have come over for 70k/year? That's what those same pilots would have made if they would have gotten hired at AC, or even less at Sunwing. They were temporarily leasing pilots. At a higher cost than local pilots.

It doesn't matter how little or how much they would or wouldn't have accepted, or whether they were leased, borrowed or purchased through a share-buyback programme. They could even have flown for free. Because they were denied permission to fly Canadian flights, their experience was not permitted to increase the pool of experience of pilots flying Canadian flights. If you believe that safety is improved by having more experienced crews, then you must accept that safety was compromised by not allowing them to fly here.

Sure, it possibly made things less safe. But that's unrelated to the argument that more money would attract more experience.

I just think Canada is in a position to quite cheaply attract more experienced pilots by raising wages.

From where would these more experienced pilots come?

On a global scale, Canada is near the bottom of the list of experienced pilot pay. The top 10 paying airlines (suchas Qatar, Catahy, ...) won't care one iota if Canada moved up from position 90 to 70 by doubling or trippling their wages. The competition for those few pilots will be relatively small.

It's a combination of salary and non-salary attractions that would compell expats to return home. Don't underestimate the urge to return home to your extended family and your home country. It won't apply to every expat of cours, but likely a significant bunch.

[CanadaAir]

Flight hours don't directly make a safe pilot.
It depends on the quality of the hours.

There are pilots with 500 hours that are knowledgeable and capable. Some hours gain lots of experience, seeing things go wrong or dealing with problems not usually encountered.
Some low time may have refused to fly, and been fired and unemployed while those who took the flight gained time and moved up.
There was more experience gained in standing up to unsafe scenarios and dealing with conflict, compared to the pilot who accepted every flight without question to gain time or fear of being fired.

There are pilots with 20,000 hours who have forgotten the basics and fallen behind on knowledge not keeping current. Or they think they are invincible with all their hours.
Many major accidents have happened with senior captains, chief pilots and training pilots.

Then there are those who have low time and aren't safe yet, and those with higher time that are so dedicated to being current that they go out an practice in Cessnas and simulators on their days off from the airline.

Flight hours are not the only indicator of safety.


The safety issues in 2023 are related to lack of pilots with time ON TYPE and with the company.
Regardless of overall flight hours, the crew has to have sufficient time ON TYPE.

The industry is piling up with low time FOs and rapid upgrade or direct entry captains with minimal type experience.

Regional airlines can have crews flying with less than 1500 hours on type total between the captain and FO.
In the past this was 8000 hours or more between the crew on type and on the routes flown.
A captain who is experienced on King Airs in the north, and who transitions direct entry to a Q400 doesn't have the experience flying into LGA or other busy airports, or dealing with airline operations, even if they have thousands of flight hours. Then they are placed with a junior FO who's never really flown IMC on a bad weather day departing from YYZ or with deferred systems.

To ensure that safety is maintained, the airlines must have at least one pilot on the flight who has many years of experience with the type and the routes. These are the pilots that are leaving in mass, type experienced first officer and captains, and they are leaving due to lack of pay.

Add the large turnover of maintenance staff who also lack type experience.
Its not safe.

To maintain adequate safety, the airlines have to pay well enough to retain the type and route experience.

[CanadaAir]

Update on Flight Attendants


"Flight attendants don't get paid when the plane door is open. Now there's a push to change that

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/flight-atte ... -1.6370957

"That's because it's common practice for the workers to only get paid once the pilot takes the brakes off the plane and backs up.

"Any time that the aircraft door is open, we are not getting paid. When we're boarding, when we're delayed, when we are getting guests settled, we are not being paid,"

"One aviation industry analyst says the airline industry needs to end the practice and follow what is being done in the U.S.

"U.S. airlines basically have kind of stepped away from that kind of practice

"So whether there's a delay or whether there's an issue with boarding passengers, the rules south of the border in terms of pay for flight attendants have changed. And I think that's where the Canadian flight attendants are looking to have similar conditions applied in Canada."

[TailwheelPilot]

All of the flight crew should be paid by duty hour or a salary, especially now that there are limitations on hours of work and not just flight times.

[CanadaAir]

A pilot starting at WestJet as 737 First Officer in 2023 would be accepting a salary of $47,500 if inflation adjusted back to 2013.

[CanadaAir]

Picketing isn’t that hard, and if the pilot group is large it’s easy to trade off shifts.

You can’t complain about holding a sign in the rain if you’ve spent time in the bush or working ramp. Should be easy compared to past adventures. Most the time it isn’t raining, and its no more boring than deadheading.

[photofly]

Picketing isn’t that hard, and if the pilot group is large it’s easy to trade off shifts.

You can’t complain about holding a sign in the rain if you’ve spent time in the bush or working ramp.

That's the real benefit to Canadian pilots of paying their dues in the north. So they can stage industrial action properly, later in their careers!

[LegoMan]

Meter readers in Toronto earning over $140k I'm guessing they bring in about $1 million+ per month in ticket revenue for the city.
I used to make $90k as an ops manager. As soon as the company realized my talent for upselling and relationship to customers I got a $15k raise on base + commission and now earn well over $135. That will only continue to grow as the department grows with newer clientele. Anytime you provide revenue value to the company you will be more valuable.

[garfield]

Supply and demand.

AC could offer 10K flat pay and still fill all the seats. This is the problem.

[CanadaAir]

Meter readers in Toronto earning over $140k I'm guessing they bring in about $1 million+ per month in ticket revenue for the city.
I used to make $90k as an ops manager. As soon as the company realized my talent for upselling and relationship to customers I got a $15k raise on base + commission and now earn well over $135. That will only continue to grow as the department grows with newer clientele. Anytime you provide revenue value to the company you will be more valuable.

Are there medical tests every year or twice a year for this job? If you can't meet the medical, can you still be a meter reader?

Do you have to do a professional license practical exam twice a year like pilots do in the simulator? Is there a meter reading simulator?

What about getting a security clearance? Do meter readers require this?

[Ash Ketchum]

Supply and demand.

AC could offer 10K flat pay and still fill all the seats. This is the problem.

While this was true historically the supply and demand equation is quickly changing in favor of the pilots. Just look at the US, we are a few years behind but it will happen here too.