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[Fanblade]

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

I want to see Jazz wages go up, the best way to do that is to compete and pay market rates, not whipsaw and carrots on sticks.

Are you kidding me? Air Canada would not survive without a regional.

Right from the horses mouth. Year end MD&A. Forward looking risk.

Significant increases in Jazz’s costs, the failure by Jazz to adequately fulfill its obligations under the Jazz CPA, factors that may reduce the utilization of the Jazz fleet, including economic or market downturns or the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, and unexpected interruptions or cessation of Jazz’s services, as well as similar circumstances relating to other airlines from whom Air Canada may source regional capacity, could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition.

Should I quote the section on Air Canada’s dependence on Star Alliance partners and joint ventures?

I never claimed AC would survive without a regional, I said that other airlines pilots contribute more to AC’s bottom line than Jazz pilots do.

You are referring to joint ventures? They are virtual mergers. Those are revenue sharing. AC earns a percentage of the gross sales based on the percentage of flying we do. Other airlines or pilots don’t make AC money. Certainly being part of a strategic alliance does.

[Transition9er2]

The pay reset is not related to flow. It is a response to market realities for pilot supply. AC has already admitted via the failed MOA that entry level pay at AC is deficient irrespective of class occupancy.

Is AC getting the most qualified OTS pilots? In some cases yes, and in some cases no.

Pay increases at both Jazz and AC are a mark-to-market exercise. AC should be the highest paying job on all aircraft types in Canada. And Jazz has fallen so far behind the market that it is challenged to meet its flying obligations under the CPA due to pilot staffing issues (attrition rates, recruitment, and retention).

There is a flow agreement in place. 60% if there are enough Jazz flow applicants. And it is technically in place until 2035 and cannot be unilaterally amended (although it appears it can be unilaterally ignored).

There are better solutions out there. Flow will simply be bundled up in any potential multilateral solution, although ratifications will apply to local CBA’s and be ratified locally.

Sure, I understand there’s an agreement in place until 2035. But again, from a business standpoint, AC knows that Jazz will run out of pilots who qualify to flow to AC in the very near future.

How many Jazz pilots meet the requirements to flow and actually want to flow over? My guess is that number doesn’t equal 60% of AC hiring metrics this year.

AC doesn’t need to cancel flow, they know Jazz doesn’t have the numbers to make it worth while moving forward.

Again, why would AC commit to giving so much to both Jazz and AC when they get so little back in return?

I feel like there’s a significantly stronger case to make to AC and Chorus for improved wages.

Maybe I’m wrong and I’m missing something. But I just don’t see AC agreeing to this line of thinking.

Pay needs to be fixed, 100%… but the fact that the idea of pushing or including a deferred seniority number is directly linked to Flow and I just don’t see how it holds any weight here.

Pilot shortage. Jazz hired too many people who are not quickly upgradable. Now they are stuck.

The problem at Jazz will only get worse if wages don’t go up AND flow is not adhered too. More quickly upgradable pilots will leave. The problem is Jazz is so far behind now that they can’t afford to let people flow. What they need in order to clean up the mess is the ability to reserve numbers at AC in an effort to hold people back at Jazz and rebuild. Without reserved numbers Jazz can’t retain and recover. If Jazz doesn’t recover AC’s operation is at risk.

And there it is. You just hit the nail on the head… Jazz can’t afford to let ppl flow!

So again, why does a reserved seniority system make sense in this case? Why would the company come to the table and agree to give raises to both pilot groups so long as we can agree on a reserved seniority list when ultimately Jazz represents such a small number of pilots compared to AC’s hiring needs. At what point does AC say it’s not worth it and it makes more sense to blow up the CA, get rid of flow and give a sizeable pay increase in wages to attract and retain pilots specifically at Jazz?

Trust me, if ACPA said I got to vote on getting a 30% pay increase with no changes to scope and zero concessions to our contract and it allowed jazz pilots to get a deferred seniority number and a pay raise as well… I’d likely vote “hell ya”

But my main question is “why would AC go for that”??

[Fanblade]

Pilot shortage. Jazz hired too many people who are not quickly upgradable. Now they are stuck.

The problem at Jazz will only get worse if wages don’t go up AND flow is not adhered too. More quickly upgradable pilots will leave. The problem is Jazz is so far behind now that they can’t afford to let people flow. What they need in order to clean up the mess is the ability to reserve numbers at AC in an effort to hold people back at Jazz and rebuild. Without reserved numbers Jazz can’t retain and recover. If Jazz doesn’t recover AC’s operation is at risk.

And there it is. You just hit the nail on the head… Jazz can’t afford to let ppl flow!

So again, why does a reserved seniority system make sense in this case? Why would the company come to the table and agree to give raises to both pilot groups so long as we can agree on a reserved seniority list when ultimately Jazz represents such a small number of pilots compared to AC’s hiring needs. At what point does AC say it’s not worth it and it makes more sense to blow up the CA, get rid of flow and give a sizeable pay increase in wages to attract and retain pilots specifically at Jazz?

First point. In the latest failed MOA the reserved numbers were AirCanada’s idea. Not ACPA’s. They wanted the reserved numbers to give them time to suspend flow and rebuild Jazz. Stopping flow without reserved numbers could make the situation worse. That MOA failed. Notice that AC pulled out of markets in favour of keeping flow moving. They could have done the opposite. But if more people started jumping ship that could have turned the situation for summer 2023 into a tail spin.

Second point. Flow through is not meant to fulfill all of AC’s hiring needs. It never was. It’s primary purpose is a tool for retention at the regional. It does have a side benefit of providing a portion of the quickly upgradable pilots mainline needs.

Third point. If you don’t have flow the only way to AC is through another airline. That incentivizes pilots to leave Jazz. That would be a very poor business decision. Flow is essential. Stopping it risky.

Fourth point. AC would not survive without a regional airline.

Fifth point. This is not the only piece of leverage mainline pilots have. It is a single source. However you don’t give away any source without extracting value.

Sixth point. With the supply shortage of quickly upgradable pilots flow through and wage increases are no longer mutually exclusive. I agree flow was used in the past to the degradation of pay.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Where’s the emoji for carrot and stick when you need one?

Words on a screen mean nothing more than the few kilobytes of data they suck from your US data plan every month when you read those emails on layovers. Everyone should be calling their union reps at all hours of the clock at this point.

[rudder]

First point. In the latest failed MOA the reserved numbers were AirCanada’s idea. Not ACPA’s. They wanted the reserved numbers to give them time to suspend flow and rebuild Jazz. Stopping flow without reserved numbers could make the situation worse. That MOA failed. Notice that AC pulled out of markets in favour of keeping flow moving. They could have done the opposite. But if more people started jumping ship that could have turned the situation for summer 2023 into a tail spin.

Second point. Flow through is not meant to fulfill all of AC’s hiring needs. It never was. It’s primary purpose is a tool for retention at the regional. It does have a side benefit of providing a portion of the quickly upgradable pilots mainline needs.

Third point. If you don’t have flow the only way to AC is through another airline. That incentivizes pilots to leave Jazz. That would be a very poor business decision. Flow is essential. Stopping it risky.

Fourth point. AC would not survive without a regional airline.

Fifth point. This is not the only piece of leverage mainline pilots have. It is a single source. However you don’t give away any source without extracting value.

Sixth point. With the supply shortage of quickly upgradable pilots flow through and wage increases are no longer mutually exclusive. I agree flow was used in the past to the degradation of pay.

Agreed. Thank you for articulating why amended and rationalized flow needs to be part of a broader set of improvements going forward.

[rudder]

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

Please direct me to the public financial document that validates that claim.

Jazz operates 700 flights per day carrying exclusively AC pax. I believe it is approximately 10 million passengers per year where the ticket revenue goes almost exclusively to AC. What other STAR carrier moves 10 million AC passengers per year? And what portion of that ticket revenue is shared with AC?

Let’s deal in reality. The purpose of the CHR CPA is for Jazz to carry AC passengers. There is no other purpose. There is no revenue sharing. And no other CDN air carrier is doing that for AC. So that doesn’t mean that Jazz pilots move to the front of the line. But they are the only other Part 705 carrier moving AC passengers under the Express banner. Nobody else in Canada (other than mainline) shares that distinction.

I don’t think that maintaining 60% hiring ratio necessarily should continue. Maybe 50%. Even then the Jazz supply line will probably be exhausted. But logistically it makes more sense to hire a pilot at Jazz, train them, get them 705 experience, upgrade them, accrue a meaningful amount of command experience, and eventually send AC the most competent pilot with solid operational experience. That won’t happen without some type of deferred seniority mechanism. And remember - in many cases a deferred seniority spot from Jazz will most likely be filled by an OTS pilot. A win-win situation.

I am guessing that you are not part of the negotiating committee nor the representational structure. Neither am I. We will each get one vote when and if any agreements are reached that affect our respective CBA’s. But we each have our opinions. I welcome the discourse because challenge is part of the validation of proposals. But the basis must be facts.

[Curiousflyer]

This is the most idiotic statement I’ve seen you make. Foreign pilots at Eurowings contribute more to AC’s bottom line then any Jazz pilot ever will, should we offer them seniority numbers too? The income stream of AC is varied amongst all star alliance and codeshare partners, the regional carrier is a small portion of that.

Please direct me to the public financial document that validates that claim.

Jazz operates 700 flights per day carrying exclusively AC pax. I believe it is approximately 10 million passengers per year where the ticket revenue goes almost exclusively to AC. What other STAR carrier moves 10 million AC passengers per year? And what portion of that ticket revenue is shared with AC?

Let’s deal in reality. The purpose of the CHR CPA is for Jazz to carry AC passengers. There is no other purpose. There is no revenue sharing. And no other CDN air carrier is doing that for AC. So that doesn’t mean that Jazz pilots move to the front of the line. But they are the only other Part 705 carrier moving AC passengers under the Express banner. Nobody else in Canada (other than mainline) shares that distinction.

I don’t think that maintaining 60% hiring ratio necessarily should continue. Maybe 50%. Even then the Jazz supply line will probably be exhausted. But logistically it makes more sense to hire a pilot at Jazz, train them, get them 705 experience, upgrade them, accrue a meaningful amount of command experience, and eventually send AC the most competent pilot with solid operational experience. That won’t happen without some type of deferred seniority mechanism. And remember - in many cases a deferred seniority spot from Jazz will most likely be filled by an OTS pilot. A win-win situation.

I am guessing that you are not part of the negotiating committee nor the representational structure. Neither am I. We will each get one vote when and if any agreements are reached that affect our respective CBA’s. But we each have our opinions. I welcome the discourse because challenge is part of the validation of proposals. But the basis must be facts.

I can’t present public data on my point, so I’ll simply concede in saying, it’s really complicated. Trying to determine which pilot groups contribute more to AC’s bottom line is impossible without a deep dive into the revenue stream. Foreign pilots undoubtedly contribute significantly to AC’s bottom line, and Air Canada would not survive as an airline without them. Ultimately, I agree with you in the sense that Air Canada needs a regional carrier to survive, but disagree that regional pilots should get reserved seniority number. It only lowers wages and working conditions for pilots across the country.

[hithere]

That is rubbish. Pilots at most of the CPA carriers in the US have 100% guaranteed flow with no interview required and reserved seniority numbers at their affiliated majors and that has not diminished pay at either. On the contrary, they have achieved extraordinary gains, at both the CPA and majors with reserved numbers

[sportingrifle]

Yes, and they all have ATPL’s. And they are all working for companies that thanks to economies of scale and large government COVID bailouts are highly profitable.
Not saying we don’t deserve large pay raises or that flow couldn’t work, but the playing field is pretty different above the frost belt.

[Curiousflyer]

That is rubbish. Pilots at most of the CPA carriers in the US have 100% guaranteed flow with no interview required and reserved seniority numbers at their affiliated majors and that has not diminished pay at either. On the contrary, they have achieved extraordinary gains, at both the CPA and majors with reserved numbers

Guaranteed flow is becoming more common, but I’m not aware of any U.S. regional carriers offering reserved seniority numbers. Ready to be proven wrong though.

[Little Star]

A lot of people are hoping that AC will buy Jazz and merge the seniority. From a corporate perspective, it doesn't make any sense. CPA provides a steady income stream to keep CHR going till 2035. It's buying them time to grow the other CHR businesses. They want to manage assets for companies like Brookfield and high net worth individuals. Who knows if Brookfield will buy CHR, sell Jazz and Voyageur.

[Nick678]

Air Canada also owns a share of jazz, with members on the board

[truedude]

A lot of people are hoping that AC will buy Jazz and merge the seniority. From a corporate perspective, it doesn't make any sense. CPA provides a steady income stream to keep CHR going till 2035. It's buying them time to grow the other CHR businesses. They want to manage assets for companies like Brookfield and high net worth individuals. Who knows if Brookfield will buy CHR, sell Jazz and Voyageur.

Chorus receives nearly no money from the CPA above and beyond the leased airplanes it has at Jazz. The margins are razer thin, there is virtually no profit.