lee123 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:49 am
Delta has a few new hire 20 something year old 67 captains that make more per hour than the #1 pilot at AC (440 CAD after this contract signing). Just let that sink in...
This doesn’t have to “sink in”. The US/Canada disparity of wages is something of which most Air Canada pilots have been aware for a long time.
The real issue, is how did we get there? And …. why do these contacts continue to be ratified? And another point, why does Air Canada have absolutely no difficulty in filling new hire classes to the tune of two classes a month?
It seems, everyone needs to be educated. Not just the pilots themselves, but ACPA (who for 20 years have promoted these wages) as well. Air Canada is aware and I am sure they are clapping their hands together with glee.
AC is filling classes because the majority of new hires are expecting an industry leading contract in the very near future.
If the contract turns out to be a disappointment, I’ll certainly be looking at other options in my area that provide me better WAWCON for me personally.
I am NOT married to AC by any means. This is a wait and see scenario for me.
It's pretty myopic to think that we live in a bubble, not affected by the goings on of other employee groups.
Like it or not, pilots were furloughed because they let HALF the Flight Attendants go. HALF.
There is --NO WAY-- pilots were going to avoid furloughs with that many FA's on the street. They are a more powerful union than we are, and "me too" is ingrained in their thought process. They firmly believe that because they work on the same plane, they are of equal value.
It's super naive to think that we weren't furloughing anyone, regardless of whether it left us short or not. They knew full well that pilots would be crawling over one another for that premium VO. ACPA facilitated this by allowing the Corp to lower the 100% premium trigger, making it even more irresistible.
Great work ACPA for undermining those on furlough, not to mention the vacation buybacks they --allowed-- that were forbidden with any pilot on the street. This was all MM's doing.
lee123 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:49 am
Delta has a few new hire 20 something year old 67 captains that make more per hour than the #1 pilot at AC (440 CAD after this contract signing). Just let that sink in...
This doesn’t have to “sink in”. The US/Canada disparity of wages is something of which most Air Canada pilots have been aware for a long time.
The real issue, is how did we get there? And …. why do these contacts continue to be ratified? And another point, why does Air Canada have absolutely no difficulty in filling new hire classes to the tune of two classes a month?
It seems, everyone needs to be educated. Not just the pilots themselves, but ACPA (who for 20 years have promoted these wages) as well. Air Canada is aware and I am sure they are clapping their hands together with glee.
AC is filling classes because the majority of new hires are expecting an industry leading contract in the very near future.
If the contract turns out to be a disappointment, I’ll certainly be looking at other options in my area that provide me better WAWCON for me personally.
I am NOT married to AC by any means. This is a wait and see scenario for me.
I think that aside from a potential industry leading contract AC is also filling classes because of the potential of a quick upgrade off of flat pay. This is risky though because it certainly isn't guaranteed.
Don’t forget a quick upgrade means years of reserve and a miserable schedule, especially if you are a commuter. I know many who could hold left seat at AC but aren’t because they choose lifestyle over pay. Reserve sucks. I did many years of it and it still haunts me.
Many people in the same boat... Getting on now because of speculation. But plenty waiting for it to be in black and white before applying . I'm certainly not taking the increase in hours plus years of pay cut to move over unless it's a pay raise... That's the way moving jobs it's supposed to work!
One thing is for sure though, if they ditch flat pay like they're supposed to, and bump 35% across the board to approach being in line with recent contracts on a global scale, everyone will be lining up. Every airline will have to follow suit in order to even attempt to keep their crews.
Things happen slowly at the mighty Air Canada. (You learn patience).
But don’t forget, every year you wait “to see what happens” is another 500 or so names down the list you’ll find yourself. That makes a huge difference.
I said this in another thread and it doesn't get mentioned as often as others, but reality is, Air Canada is likely the only airline in this country which will likely never cease to exist, as history has showcased... I would suspect that other then speculation of the (hopefully) new pay raise coming towards the end of the year, a lot of people take this factor into consideration for going to AC, regardless of the prospect of future furloughs or not, as that can happen at any airline anywhere in the world
To answer your question, Air Canada…..express pilots are. When your take home pay is minimum wage there is an issue. Just put it in the perspective of if you were a pilot in Mexico making 230 usd per month (minimum wage in Mexico). Pretty crazy! However pilots in Mexican I can imagine make more with starting pay than the majority of professions.
twa22 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:03 pm
I said this in another thread and it doesn't get mentioned as often as others, but reality is, Air Canada is likely the only airline in this country which will likely never cease to exist, as history has showcased... I would suspect that other then speculation of the (hopefully) new pay raise coming towards the end of the year, a lot of people take this factor into consideration for going to AC, regardless of the prospect of future furloughs or not, as that can happen at any airline anywhere in the world
This unique position in Canada is probably the biggest reason that AC can (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view) continue to pay what it does while still filling ground schools. If we weren't all shackled with the seniority system, that wouldn’t matter so much…
twa22 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:03 pm
I said this in another thread and it doesn't get mentioned as often as others, but reality is, Air Canada is likely the only airline in this country which will likely never cease to exist, as history has showcased... I would suspect that other then speculation of the (hopefully) new pay raise coming towards the end of the year, a lot of people take this factor into consideration for going to AC, regardless of the prospect of future furloughs or not, as that can happen at any airline anywhere in the world
This unique position in Canada is probably the biggest reason that AC can (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view) continue to pay what it does while still filling ground schools. If we weren't all shackled with the seniority system, that wouldn’t matter so much…
Yea, definitely a big reason, but while ground schools are still being filled, while I don't have skin in the AC game, I'm hoping majority of pilots at AC have woken up lately and the next contract will be minimum 30% gains and no more flat pay, as has been said time and time again, what AC does will effect everyone else... hopefully that last MOA that was turned down was a good indication that some significant gains are to be made
twa22 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:03 pm
I said this in another thread and it doesn't get mentioned as often as others, but reality is, Air Canada is likely the only airline in this country which will likely never cease to exist, as history has showcased... I would suspect that other then speculation of the (hopefully) new pay raise coming towards the end of the year, a lot of people take this factor into consideration for going to AC, regardless of the prospect of future furloughs or not, as that can happen at any airline anywhere in the world
This unique position in Canada is probably the biggest reason that AC can (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view) continue to pay what it does while still filling ground schools. If we weren't all shackled with the seniority system, that wouldn’t matter so much…
Yea, definitely a big reason, but while ground schools are still being filled, while I don't have skin in the AC game, I'm hoping majority of pilots at AC have woken up lately and the next contract will be minimum 30% gains and no more flat pay, as has been said time and time again, what AC does will effect everyone else... hopefully that last MOA that was turned down was a good indication that some significant gains are to be made
The tragic reality is that even an immediate 30% pay raise gets us nowhere near where we should be. We have given up hundreds of millions in other concessions over the last 20 years without even talking about salary. Those "gives" are never to be recovered, and we never got a "thanks very much" for a single one.
It's really pathetic.
If this group settles for one dime less than Delta, we are forever a lot cause.
I'm glad to see ACPA getting the word out to the media. I like the new leadership we have there and hope they continue to do good work under the ALPA banner.
That’s good to see it’s out there in the news showing the pay disparity between here and south of the border. I was wondering if that 45% includes the currency differences.
Inverted2 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:38 am
That’s good to see it’s out there in the news showing the pay disparity between here and south of the border. I was wondering if that 45% includes the currency differences.
It does not.
Example. Delta 787CA 417USD/hour. AC 297CDN/hour. Roughly 40%.
FO’s at AC make less percent of CA pay than In the US. RPs even less.
So a gross error check tells me the statement added up. The average is likely in the 45% ball park without currency exchange.
Adding in currency exchange would be even more embarrassing
This unique position in Canada is probably the biggest reason that AC can (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view) continue to pay what it does while still filling ground schools. If we weren't all shackled with the seniority system, that wouldn’t matter so much…
Yea, definitely a big reason, but while ground schools are still being filled, while I don't have skin in the AC game, I'm hoping majority of pilots at AC have woken up lately and the next contract will be minimum 30% gains and no more flat pay, as has been said time and time again, what AC does will effect everyone else... hopefully that last MOA that was turned down was a good indication that some significant gains are to be made
The tragic reality is that even an immediate 30% pay raise gets us nowhere near where we should be. We have given up hundreds of millions in other concessions over the last 20 years without even talking about salary. Those "gives" are never to be recovered, and we never got a "thanks very much" for a single one.
It's really pathetic.
If this group settles for one dime less than Delta, we are forever a lot cause.
True and agreed, but reality is, I have flown with fellows who truly believe we can't compete with the US to have our salaries bumped that high, to which they give a million reasons why, of which some have been echoed here... reality is, we probably can't compete with the US on a multitude of things, but that doesn't mean we deserve to eat shit and demand proper wages.
Unfortunately, I feel this mindset is probably a good chunk of the pilot group in Canada then we might think. I frankly do we feel we are partly a lost cause, but I still have some faith and hope I am very wrong
I wonder if AC, WJ, TS.....etc. All tell Boeing and Airbus that they can't pay US prices for parts and services since you know, we're in Canada and it's a much smaller market and all.
twa22 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:54 am
True and agreed, but reality is, I have flown with fellows who truly believe we can't compete with the US to have our salaries bumped that high, to which they give a million reasons why, of which some have been echoed here... reality is, we probably can't compete with the US on a multitude of things, but that doesn't mean we deserve to eat shit and demand proper wages.
Unfortunately, I feel this mindset is probably a good chunk of the pilot group in Canada then we might think. I frankly do we feel we are partly a lost cause, but I still have some faith and hope I am very wrong
The mindset is slowly fading. You have to remember that the Union has been telling its pilots we can’t compare. I have even seen union leadership mock individuals who suggest otherwise.
When in fact ACPA has always compared themselves to US carrier in the past pre 2012. The company has always argued against this of course. It has only been in the last 5-7 years that the union has suddenly agreed with the company. Even the company has compared us to the US carriers when it suits them.
"This agreement preserves our pilots' compensation and benefits in the top quartile of the North American industry and will help ensure the sustainability of the company's defined-benefit pension plans," said Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada's chief executive.
From 2003 backwards ACPA was always seeking pay parity after currency exchange. Our wages were similar but the CDN was at $0.61.
"We came to the conclusion that we should accept what was on the table," pilots spokesman Serge Beaulieu said in an interview Saturday.
"We didn't get pay parity (with U.S. pilots) - at least not for now," Mr. Beaulieu said. "That's a longer-term project and we'll cross that bridge when we get to it."
According to the union, Air Canada pilots are among the lowest-paid in the industry, earning 30 percent to 50 percent less than pilots at U.S. airlines.
Again keep in mind these statements pre 2000 and are about pay parity after currency exchange. Today we have fallen so far behind that some think we are not even worth a similar wage without currency exchange.
