Are Air Canada pilots the lowest paid in the world?

[PositiveRate27]

True and agreed, but reality is, I have flown with fellows who truly believe we can't compete with the US to have our salaries bumped that high, to which they give a million reasons why, of which some have been echoed here... reality is, we probably can't compete with the US on a multitude of things, but that doesn't mean we deserve to eat shit and demand proper wages.

Unfortunately, I feel this mindset is probably a good chunk of the pilot group in Canada then we might think. I frankly do we feel we are partly a lost cause, but I still have some faith and hope I am very wrong

The mindset is slowly fading. You have to remember that the Union has been telling its pilots we can’t compare. I have even seen union leadership mock individuals who suggest otherwise.

When in fact ACPA has always compared themselves to US carrier in the past pre 2012. The company has always argued against this of course. It has only been in the last 5-7 years that the union has suddenly agreed with the company. Even the company has compared us to the US carriers when it suits them.

2012. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... -1.1273060

"This agreement preserves our pilots' compensation and benefits in the top quartile of the North American industry and will help ensure the sustainability of the company's defined-benefit pension plans," said Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada's chief executive.

From 2003 backwards ACPA was always seeking pay parity after currency exchange. Our wages were similar but the CDN was at $0.61.

2000. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... le1188911/

"We came to the conclusion that we should accept what was on the table," pilots spokesman Serge Beaulieu said in an interview Saturday.

"We didn't get pay parity (with U.S. pilots) - at least not for now," Mr. Beaulieu said. "That's a longer-term project and we'll cross that bridge when we get to it."

1998 https://www.deseret.com/1998/9/2/193994 ... cket-lines

The association said its members make 30 percent to 50 percent less than the pay of comparable pilots in the United States and Europe.

https://money.cnn.com/1998/07/23/travel ... aircanada/

According to the union, Air Canada pilots are among the lowest-paid in the industry, earning 30 percent to 50 percent less than pilots at U.S. airlines.

Again keep in mind these statements pre 2000 and are about pay parity after currency exchange. Today we have fallen so far behind that some think we are not even worth a similar wage without currency exchange.

The attitude difference is enormous.

It begs the question. WTF happened to ACPA?

And these comparisons to the US were made when one needed considerably more experience and time in the industry to even make it to big red. High pilot supply and low pilot demand didn’t seem to be a hindrance in 03 when we had our last decent contract. We need to smash these narratives and smash them fast. Our union is starting to sound and act like one. Winds are definitely shifting

[twa22]

True and agreed, but reality is, I have flown with fellows who truly believe we can't compete with the US to have our salaries bumped that high, to which they give a million reasons why, of which some have been echoed here... reality is, we probably can't compete with the US on a multitude of things, but that doesn't mean we deserve to eat shit and demand proper wages.

Unfortunately, I feel this mindset is probably a good chunk of the pilot group in Canada then we might think. I frankly do we feel we are partly a lost cause, but I still have some faith and hope I am very wrong

The mindset is slowly fading. You have to remember that the Union has been telling its pilots we can’t compare. I have even seen union leadership mock individuals who suggest otherwise.

When in fact ACPA has always compared themselves to US carrier in the past pre 2012. The company has always argued against this of course. It has only been in the last 5-7 years that the union has suddenly agreed with the company. Even the company has compared us to the US carriers when it suits them.

2012. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... -1.1273060

"This agreement preserves our pilots' compensation and benefits in the top quartile of the North American industry and will help ensure the sustainability of the company's defined-benefit pension plans," said Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada's chief executive.

From 2003 backwards ACPA was always seeking pay parity after currency exchange. Our wages were similar but the CDN was at $0.61.

2000. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... le1188911/

"We came to the conclusion that we should accept what was on the table," pilots spokesman Serge Beaulieu said in an interview Saturday.

"We didn't get pay parity (with U.S. pilots) - at least not for now," Mr. Beaulieu said. "That's a longer-term project and we'll cross that bridge when we get to it."

1998 https://www.deseret.com/1998/9/2/193994 ... cket-lines

The association said its members make 30 percent to 50 percent less than the pay of comparable pilots in the United States and Europe.

https://money.cnn.com/1998/07/23/travel ... aircanada/

According to the union, Air Canada pilots are among the lowest-paid in the industry, earning 30 percent to 50 percent less than pilots at U.S. airlines.

Again keep in mind these statements pre 2000 and are about pay parity after currency exchange. Today we have fallen so far behind that some think we are not even worth a similar wage without currency exchange.

The attitude difference is enormous.

It begs the question. WTF happened to ACPA?

Like I said, I hope so... these next 12-18 months will be very interesting and I'm sure a lot of people are watching closely

[FNGYYZ]

True and agreed, but reality is, I have flown with fellows who truly believe we can't compete with the US to have our salaries bumped that high, to which they give a million reasons why, of which some have been echoed here... reality is, we probably can't compete with the US on a multitude of things, but that doesn't mean we deserve to eat shit and demand proper wages.

Unfortunately, I feel this mindset is probably a good chunk of the pilot group in Canada then we might think. I frankly do we feel we are partly a lost cause, but I still have some faith and hope I am very wrong

The mindset is slowly fading. You have to remember that the Union has been telling its pilots we can’t compare. I have even seen union leadership mock individuals who suggest otherwise.

When in fact ACPA has always compared themselves to US carrier in the past pre 2012. The company has always argued against this of course. It has only been in the last 5-7 years that the union has suddenly agreed with the company. Even the company has compared us to the US carriers when it suits them.

2012. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... -1.1273060

"This agreement preserves our pilots' compensation and benefits in the top quartile of the North American industry and will help ensure the sustainability of the company's defined-benefit pension plans," said Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada's chief executive.

From 2003 backwards ACPA was always seeking pay parity after currency exchange. Our wages were similar but the CDN was at $0.61.

2000. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... le1188911/

"We came to the conclusion that we should accept what was on the table," pilots spokesman Serge Beaulieu said in an interview Saturday.

"We didn't get pay parity (with U.S. pilots) - at least not for now," Mr. Beaulieu said. "That's a longer-term project and we'll cross that bridge when we get to it."

1998 https://www.deseret.com/1998/9/2/193994 ... cket-lines

The association said its members make 30 percent to 50 percent less than the pay of comparable pilots in the United States and Europe.

https://money.cnn.com/1998/07/23/travel ... aircanada/

According to the union, Air Canada pilots are among the lowest-paid in the industry, earning 30 percent to 50 percent less than pilots at U.S. airlines.

Again keep in mind these statements pre 2000 and are about pay parity after currency exchange. Today we have fallen so far behind that some think we are not even worth a similar wage without currency exchange.

The attitude difference is enormous.

It begs the question. WTF happened to ACPA?

And these comparisons to the US were made when one needed considerably more experience and time in the industry to even make it to big red. High pilot supply and low pilot demand didn’t seem to be a hindrance in 03 when we had our last decent contract. We need to smash these narratives and smash them fast. Our union is starting to sound and act like one. Winds are definitely shifting

Agreed - good

But honest question as a noob...why would a union not act like a union? Why pay dues to a union that doesn't represent your interests?

[Fanblade]

The mindset is slowly fading. You have to remember that the Union has been telling its pilots we can’t compare. I have even seen union leadership mock individuals who suggest otherwise.

When in fact ACPA has always compared themselves to US carrier in the past pre 2012. The company has always argued against this of course. It has only been in the last 5-7 years that the union has suddenly agreed with the company. Even the company has compared us to the US carriers when it suits them.

2012. https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... -1.1273060

"This agreement preserves our pilots' compensation and benefits in the top quartile of the North American industry and will help ensure the sustainability of the company's defined-benefit pension plans," said Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada's chief executive.

From 2003 backwards ACPA was always seeking pay parity after currency exchange. Our wages were similar but the CDN was at $0.61.

2000. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... le1188911/

"We came to the conclusion that we should accept what was on the table," pilots spokesman Serge Beaulieu said in an interview Saturday.

"We didn't get pay parity (with U.S. pilots) - at least not for now," Mr. Beaulieu said. "That's a longer-term project and we'll cross that bridge when we get to it."

1998 https://www.deseret.com/1998/9/2/193994 ... cket-lines

The association said its members make 30 percent to 50 percent less than the pay of comparable pilots in the United States and Europe.

https://money.cnn.com/1998/07/23/travel ... aircanada/

According to the union, Air Canada pilots are among the lowest-paid in the industry, earning 30 percent to 50 percent less than pilots at U.S. airlines.

Again keep in mind these statements pre 2000 and are about pay parity after currency exchange. Today we have fallen so far behind that some think we are not even worth a similar wage without currency exchange.

The attitude difference is enormous.

It begs the question. WTF happened to ACPA?

And these comparisons to the US were made when one needed considerably more experience and time in the industry to even make it to big red. High pilot supply and low pilot demand didn’t seem to be a hindrance in 03 when we had our last decent contract. We need to smash these narratives and smash them fast. Our union is starting to sound and act like one. Winds are definitely shifting

Agreed - good

But honest question as a noob...why would a union not act like a union? Why pay dues to a union that doesn't represent your interests?

A long period of membership disengagement.

A union’s strength comes from the membership. Once a company realizes the union is in a weakened state. When they realize the union itself doesn’t have the confidence to stand up. That the membership is frozen and detached from leadership. That the union leadership doesn’t have any followship. The company takes the union for all it can get. The weakened union left between a rock and a hard place. Unable to extract from the company enough to meet the expectations of the membership, the union turns to lowering membership expectations as a way to survive.

Eventually the lack of performance of the union guarantees its demise. But with a detached, unengaged, non unified membership that can take a long time because the very act of rising up, and doing something about it, takes unity.

Moral of the story. Leadership is weak if it doesn’t have followers. Followers won’t follow without proper engagement from leadership.

It’s a circle. It starts with leadership that understands the importance of unity. Leadership that understands their success resides in followship.

Or as ALPA puts it. Pilot Power.

IOW it’s not like ACPA deliberately set out to underperform. ACPA’s error was taking its eye off the ball. For years they didn’t have confidence the membership would rally behind them. They knew this. They knew they couldn’t get a quorum at a meeting. Yet they did nothing to address it. In turn the company exploited this weakness for all it was worth.

Eventually another group target the membership to follow them instead.

[BTD]

I would add, that the constitution of ACPA spells out the higher ups have a duty to ACPA itself and not the membership. It becomes very self serving doing what it can to survive. Then there is all the paid staff who have vested interest in ensuring the best for the organization and not the group the organization represents.

It’s a problem.

[newcomer]

And now American!

https://onemileatatime.com/news/america ... pilot-pay/

A 737 Captain will make 475k usd, that means 655k cad.

A 777 Captain will make 590k usd, that means 813k cad.

Even if the AC pilots get a 100% raise, they will still be very far from the salaries people are getting south of the border. That, my friends, should tell you how low the AC salaries are.

[schnitzel2k3]

And now American!

https://onemileatatime.com/news/america ... pilot-pay/

A 737 Captain will make 475k usd, that means 655k cad.

A 777 Captain will make 590k usd, that means 813k cad.

Even if the AC pilots get a 100% raise, they will still be very far from the salaries people are getting south of the border. That, my friends, should tell you how low the AC salaries are.

Meanwhile Westjet execs are actively in a war against admitting to any sort of industry signals that flight crew are becoming more and more difficult to find as they essentially donate highly experienced crews to AC ground schools.

God help all Canadian airlines and the travelling public should the talent border open between the U.S and Canada.

[flyer 1492]

I'm pretty sure our Government and ALPA in the USA would not allow that to happen.

[schnitzel2k3]

I'm pretty sure our Government and ALPA in the USA would not allow that to happen.

It's certainly not looking up for that to transpire, but if all the U.S majors petition the government in one voice, who knows what is possible.

ALPA can kick and scream all day, but money talks and the airlines have more money and more power than a union, even one as large as ALPA. Thing is several thousand Canadians wouldn't make a dent to their crew requirements. They could absorb our entire aviation labour force in a year and still need more.

Further, they don't need permission from our government - it has nothing to do with them - they just open a direct visa process and adios. Might cause our government to momentarily gag, but Canada relies heavily on pleasuring the U.S.

[Blueontop]

I have always felt that it could be reciprocal in nature to the US pilot group. The new pilots looking for 1500 hours come up here and the experienced Canuck pilots head down south. It would probably make wages worse here I think because there wouldn’t be a shortage of new talent to fill the spots here but Canadian talent would make proper money state side.

[flyingcanuck]

I'm pretty sure our Government and ALPA in the USA would not allow that to happen.

Honestly, id wager it's OUR government holding us here. I'm sure they have been threatened with higher ticket prices across the country if the govt let's us all go.

[newcomer]

Missinippi paying their medevac captains up to 170k to fly a king air 13 on / 13 off.

[Sharklasers]

Missinippi paying their medevac captains up to 170k to fly a king air 13 on / 13 off.

In the entire history of that company there has been 1 pilot who has made a career out of and stayed for 4000 hours because he married a woman from Puk. They could have listed that column as 1 million per annum and it wouldn’t have cost them a dime. Does anyone wonder why that company has perpetual job ads up despite being one of the highest paid operators in Canada? They aren’t paying that much out of the kindness of their hearts.

[up on one]

Name one company that pays an extraordinarily high salary out of the goodness of their heart? Compensation packages have always had a strong correlation with supply and demand of said employee and right now experienced captains are the ticket item. As long as we live in a capitalistic country this will mostly remain true. Dubai is the perfect example of this without a set minimum wage.

[Sharklasers]

Name one company that pays an extraordinarily high salary out of the goodness of their heart? Compensation packages have always had a strong correlation with supply and demand of said employee and right now experienced captains are the ticket item. As long as we live in a capitalistic country this will mostly remain true. Dubai is the perfect example of this without a set minimum wage.

I think you’re missing the point. They can putting whatever number they want in the “plus 4000 hours at Missinippi” column if no one can tolerate that place long enough to see it.

For a company who isn’t growing they sure seem to need a lot of pilots.

They pay 130k to start for experienced typed captains and much less for upgrades which seems to be the standard these days.

[up on one]

Well there ya go! I completely did not catch the “4000 at missinippi” retention bonus part. Either way the market will always dictate price. If it’s a culture issue it’s only a matter of time till they figure out the price to tolerate said issues or fix them or park planes. What other options are there?

[elite]

Naturally to fix the pay problem at Air Canada and improve its pay, FOUR LOOONNNG years of flat pay have to disappear! That's where it starts! At the very least, that will raise the scale by four years. Everyone seems to focus so much on US pay, but they forget that the starting pay there is around 100K and it moves up very quickly.

[TheAlcalde]

Naturally to fix the pay problem at Air Canada and improve its pay, FOUR LOOONNNG years of flat pay have to disappear! That's where it starts! At the very least, that will raise the scale by four years. Everyone seems to focus so much on US pay, but they forget that the starting pay there is around 100K and it moves up very quickly.

Only one piece of the puzzle. Think beyond the first 4 years. 30 percent on 200k by the time you hit year 6 is a bigger fish, and something ALL of us will benefit from.

Four year flat pay has to go, but that’s ONE on a long list….and the rest of your career is going to be a lot longer than 4 years

[up on one]

I keep reading that people do not leave AC for other companies and they have at least a thousand westjet pilot applications alone. So back to supply and demand, why would they consider changing flat pay much less give pay raises when they can meet their current hiring demands. I’m not saying this is right but if you have enough people willing to accept minimum wage why would you cut into your margin?

[FlyingMonkey]

I keep reading that people do not leave AC for other companies and they have at least a thousand westjet pilot applications alone. So back to supply and demand, why would they consider changing flat pay much less give pay raises when they can meet their current hiring demands. I’m not saying this is right but if you have enough people willing to accept minimum wage why would you cut into your margin?

+1

Simple supply and demand. You get what you can leverage, not what you deserve. This is true in business and life.