bumping first class passengers for deadhead crew

[iflygirl_92]

is it in the pilot contract that you can remove a paying first class in business class passenger for a dead head?

[ZBBYLW]

Captains and FOs have a contractual right to sit up front with a few exceptions (last minute changes, if already full). If the company didn't book the seats at the first opportunity and J is full, the CAs or FOs have the right to bump a revenue passengers. It's not a good look, but it's the company's problem not booking seats properly. The pilots have spent negotiating capital for this privilege.

[iflygirl_92]

Thank you but that seems a little bit ridiculous it is a very bad look and the pilot should take the highroad and actually sit in the back in my opinion if you could send me the reference for the contract, I’d be appreciated

[iflygirl_92]

Can you explain that? Does that give them the right to bump me a few hours before the flight?

[altiplano]

What kind of "paying first class passenger" are we referring to? E-upgrades or points upgrades or full fare J passenger?

And how do you know that anyone was bumped by a pilot? Some SE million milers are able to bump other people not only out of J, but right off the flight if it's full. And with a few exceptions, pilot deadheads are booked and blocked off well in advance before the schedules are even made.

[Ironman2909]

What kind of "paying first class passenger" are we referring to? E-upgrades or points upgrades or full fare J passenger?

And how do you know that anyone was bumped by a pilot? Some SE million milers are able to bump other people not only out of J, but right off the flight if it's full. And with a few exceptions, pilot deadheads are booked and blocked off well in advance before the schedules are even made.

I should add.....to some extent...it is the company who builds pairings with an awful amount of DHs. They take advantage of the DH at 50% over the DBM to send pilots all the way across the country to do unproductive flying. It's not the pilots group fault for the extensive amount of pilots DeadHeading in J class, the corp as a certain responsibility in this.

[northtosouth]

To be clear this is an aviation forum not a whiny elite passenger complaint forum.

[iflygirl_92]

it was a full fair J class paid back in April to the Caribbean. They got me bumped to the back. for a junior first officer so he could sit up in business class. better get used to it more passengers, complaining wherever they can.

[ZBBYLW]

Thank you but that seems a little bit ridiculous it is a very bad look and the pilot should take the highroad and actually sit in the back in my opinion if you could send me the reference for the contract, I’d be appreciated

I'm not going to share company material. I've already highlighted the reason. If the corp requires us to DH we have certain contractual rights as to where we sit. Nothing more, nothing less.

[iflygirl_92]

Don’t worry already found it in your contract. It’s online. Thanks.

[ZBBYLW]

it was a full fair J class paid back in April to the Caribbean. They got me bumped to the back. for a junior first officer so he could sit up in business class. better get used to it more passengers, complaining wherever they can.

I can appreciate your frustration, but blaming the "junior first officer" isn't fair. The AC pilots have an agreement with their employer. It would be like saying they should give up part of their pay or something similar.

[altiplano]

it was a full fair J class paid back in April to the Caribbean. They got me bumped to the back. for a junior first officer so he could sit up in business class. better get used to it more passengers, complaining wherever they can.

Nope. That F.O. did not bump you. That seat was blocked off in advance for him or he wouldn't have had it. And how do you know that he's "junior." Your tone is awfully derogatory.

Someone else bumped you out such as a S.E. million miler I mentioned, or the company oversold the flight and you were lowest on the status totem. Sucks to be you.

And why are you bringing this up 10 months later on a pilot forum? Haven't you moved on with your life yet?

[TheStig]

it was a full fair J class paid back in April to the Caribbean. They got me bumped to the back. for a junior first officer so he could sit up in business class. better get used to it more passengers, complaining wherever they can.

I can appreciate your frustration, but blaming the "junior first officer" isn't fair. The AC pilots have an agreement with their employer. It would be like saying they should give up part of their pay or something similar.

Can’t win, one thread on this forum is all about what a bunch of cheap whores AC pilots are and this one is lambasting them for sitting in a seat they’re contractually entitled to.

[FL030]

Sounds like a flight attendant

[RoAF-Mig21]

Thank you but that seems a little bit ridiculous it is a very bad look and the pilot should take the highroad and actually sit in the back in my opinion if you could send me the reference for the contract, I’d be appreciated

So you're a pilot that has to DH from YYZ to YVR to operate a flight after, and think it's okay for them to sit in the back? Fatigue is a big factor and 4 hrs on an economy seat vs business class seat makes a huge difference. I'm sorry I do not agree with you. Like someone else sais "That's the company's problem". Imagine pilots were always "taking the high road", it would become an expected norm. NOPE.

[Freshredmeat]

it was a full fair J class paid back in April to the Caribbean. They got me bumped to the back. for a junior first officer so he could sit up in business class. better get used to it more passengers, complaining wherever they can.

I can appreciate your frustration, but blaming the "junior first officer" isn't fair. The AC pilots have an agreement with their employer. It would be like saying they should give up part of their pay or something similar.

Can’t win, one thread on this forum is all about what a bunch of cheap whores AC pilots are and this one is lambasting them for sitting in a seat they’re contractually entitled to.

I blame WJ!

[Crewbunk]

First of all, you were not booked in First Class. Air Canada hasn’t sold a First Class ticket in over 25 years. As well noted above, Captains, First Officers and Augment First Officers are contractually given a Business Class seat when DeadHeading. RPs in Economy, pending space in Business or Premium Economy upon departure.

Pairings are built 4 to 10 weeks in advance. If a pairing includes a DeadHead the seat is removed from inventory at that time. Never in my 30 odd years of overseeing Pairing Generation have I ever encountered an occasion where that far in advance, Business Class was full.

Understand, there are two levels of Business fares. The lower level is sometimes booked, but the higher flexible fare is always open that far in advance.

Air Canada never overbooks Business Class or Premium Economy. The only time there may be more J passengers than seats, is due to an equipment change. (The 28 seat J cabin substituting for 40 seat J cabin on the 777, or a 20 seat 787-8 for a 30 seat 787-9). However it is extremely unlikely that the DeadHeading pilots weren’t among the first booked.

The only occasion, therefore where a pilot may “bump” a J passenger is a last minute pairing change due to an irrop. Crew Scheduling though, will do everything in their power to not let that happen. Offering a cash payment to sit in Y or go the next day, supplying hotels and meals. But, bottom line is that on a flight of over 4 hours, like yours from the Caribbean, that pilot is entitled to that seat.

As noted on another thread, apparently we are the “lowest paid pilots on the earth”, we are not giving up another contractually granted “payment”.

[dhc2pilot]

Don’t worry already found it in your contract. It’s online. Thanks.

Don’t forget who is getting you to your destination safely. Sometimes we deadhead one way to operate back while doing a 12 hour duty day in shit weather. I’d personal like a well rested pilot at the controls…..and remember, it’s not the pilots fault you are in the back. I agree it’s frustrating but again, not our fault for the companies poor planning.

[SLFless]

SLF here and thanks in advance for the opportunity to post a reply and a view from one of us in the not-so-cheap seats. I’m also writing in case someone else does a drive-by post with similar confusion.

Indeed, as Crewbunk noted, AC does not have First Class, so using that as a reference point or thread title could indicate someone who doesn’t work for the airline or isn’t familiar with AC’s front cabin (eg. mainline and rouge). We know our friends south of the border use the term First Class for what is domestic business class.

The AC pilot contract details were also provided and well explained in posts above. Thank you. My humble view is that pilots deserve their benefits and there is nothing wrong with the contract that allows them to sit in business. Always better to post a question asking why.

altiplano is right that a SE (Super Elite) can potentially bump someone out of a seat. I will also note that I’m a SE MM and we can also easily be bumped out of our seats for “operational reasons” such as the aircraft swaps Crewbunk noted. It’s happened to me and that’s life - or I book a different flight.

Conversely, SEs (SE MMs) and even other folks, can benefit from an “operational upgrade”. In my decades of flying AC, it happened to me once due to the above-mentioned Y oversell and another time to W&B (in fact, on that short flight last year, all 12 of us in J were gate upgrades for that exact reason).

AC has a chart of detailed benefits on its page "Aeroplan Elite Status benefits”. For both 75K and SE100K, the following is included:

"Guaranteed Reservations in Economy Class

When a flight is booked to capacity, you and one travel companion travelling on the same reservation can reserve a seat in Economy Class on flights operated by Air Canada and Air Canada Express, with the purchase of a full-fare ticket (booking class Y) at least 6 hours prior to departure. This does not apply to Flight Pass reservations or on Air Canada flights numbered AC1600 to AC1799."

AC has 5 classes of paid Business fares, plus lowest and flexible Business fares on the Aeroplan side. Paid J class is fully flexible, as is Aeroplan Flexible Business class. All other business class fares have restrictions. AC and some other airlines actually have good info on their websites about the rules and restrictions for all these fares. The bigger confusion seems to be the restricted economy fares.

And for those unfamiliar, achieving AC status on an annual basis (so SE100K, 75K etc) requires flying a specific minimum amount of miles and spending a specific minimum of dollars. The miles can be earned flying AC or partner airlines. Million Mile status is specifically on lifetime flying on AC metal.

Finally, there are some of us who subscribe to various apps or services where we have access to details that can help with things from loads to flight status to fare info for almost every airline. These services allow me to know which cabins on which flights might have upgrade space available, for example. All of these services are quite helpful as some of us fly more than one airline.

Thanks for reading.

[RippleRock]

We are all fully aware of the FA's raging about the pilots B1's.

I think this "outrage" about bumping revenue J is an extension of that. Sorry.....contract stuff. You may be disappointed, but the contractual differences are about to get rather large. There is NO shortage of FA's, and there never will be.

This "me too stuff", to which FA's have been hitching gains to the pilots wagon, (which is uniquely and exclusively Canadian btw), is about to end.