New hire thoughts

[FlyYYC]

Starting AC at 42. Thoughts?

[Transition9er2]

It’s a hard question to answer. There’s another post about this subject under the AC thread that has some great responses.

It’s a question that has so many different variables that change from person to person.

Do you live in one of the bases? - commuting is awful.
Does your spouse work to supplement the low starting wages?
Are you in a financial position to get through your first few years if your spouse does NOT have a decent paying job.
Are you coming from a place like Jazz or other companies that will allow you to transfer your pension into AC’s.

I could list a ton of variables, as I said it’s a very personal question to answer.

That being said, there’s a lot of positive changes being talked about (switch to ALPA and contract negots) that should drastically improve the contract moving forward.

It’s not a horrible place to be, but there’s certainly options in this country that treat their pilots significantly better when it comes to WAWCON.

[Little Star]

Congrats! You have 23 more years to milk it.

[Brize]

Are you in a financial position to get through your first few years if your spouse does NOT have a decent paying job.

I don't think that is possible. Your old pension becomes a LIRA and only grows if invested similar to an RRSP account.

[FlyYYC]

Thanks for the reply. I don't care about the pension because I have alternative investments but I have declined the interview. Starting pay is just too low for experienced individuals.

[JHR]

More people need to do what you just did or things will never change

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

More people need to do what you just did or things will never change

Did you do it? Or any of the other contributors to this thread?

Pilots were offered an opportunity to get rid of 4 years flat pay. They voted against it. Yeah, I know, there were 25 different reasons to not vote yes. But they were offered the opportunity.

I love reading how all the new hires are so offended with the wages and working conditions at AC. So how many have left for the greener pastures? A handful? a decimal point compared to the numbers who are coming here. Pilots from Etihad, Cathay, Emirates, Qatar are coming home and accepting the terms...these are not newly-dyed-in-the-wool pilots. They know a thing or two about life as a professional pilot. And yet they still come to AC....Westjet pilots make up 10-20% of every new-hire course, Porter, Flair, Jazz, Sunwing and Air Transat pilots are all leaving to come here.

Lots of complaints about how sh!tty life is as a junior pilot....really? Well that's the way life works here at an airline. Your seniority dictates your career choices. Super-junior narrow body captain? Yeah, day to day life isn't great but the salary is pretty nice. Oh, you want a nice salary and great working conditions, then you're going to have to wait, there's 4500 pilots in the que.

ALPA is going to fix all this though, so by May 2023, it will be sunshine, roses, and unicorn farts at AC.

[PositiveRate27]

More people need to do what you just did or things will never change

Did you do it? Or any of the other contributors to this thread?

Pilots were offered an opportunity to get rid of 4 years flat pay. They voted against it. Yeah, I know, there were 25 different reasons to not vote yes. But they were offered the opportunity.

I love reading how all the new hires are so offended with the wages and working conditions at AC. So how many have left for the greener pastures? A handful? a decimal point compared to the numbers who are coming here. Pilots from Etihad, Cathay, Emirates, Qatar are coming home and accepting the terms...these are not newly-dyed-in-the-wool pilots. They know a thing or two about life as a professional pilot. And yet they still come to AC....Westjet pilots make up 10-20% of every new-hire course, Porter, Flair, Jazz, Sunwing and Air Transat pilots are all leaving to come here.

Lots of complaints about how sh!tty life is as a junior pilot....really? Well that's the way life works here at an airline. Your seniority dictates your career choices. Super-junior narrow body captain? Yeah, day to day life isn't great but the salary is pretty nice. Oh, you want a nice salary and great working conditions, then you're going to have to wait, there's 4500 pilots in the que.

ALPA is going to fix all this though, so by May 2023, it will be sunshine, roses, and unicorn farts at AC.

Corporation, “Hey guys, would you like some ice cream?”

Employees, “Yes, we are interested in ice cream. Whatcha got?”

Corporation, “We have the same stale vanilla they serve on elementary school sports days. The one in the plastic cup with a cardboard top and a wooden spoon. We topped it with poop sprinkles. Not everyone can have it though, in fact some of you will have to work even harder to get it.”

Employees, “uhhhh you know what… we’ll pass, thanks.”

Random internet poster, “Looks like you whiners didn’t want ice cream. No more talk about wanting ice cream.”

[JHR]

Did you do it? Or any of the other contributors to this thread?

As a matter of fact I told them I was no longer interested due to the low wage.

[DanWEC]

I did the same.

I'm of similar age, and have compiled an obsessive amount of spreadsheets with lifetime earnings in many scenarios of types and upgrade projections, and not only would I lose out financially by moving, I'd work 30-40% more, compounding the disparity.

Sure, pay will be going up, hopefully in the 30% range- but all majors will inevitably be on the same page within a few years of each other.

However, this puts the focus purely on the financial side. I feel that lifestyle, culture and happiness are immeasurably more important than 10% pay difference here or there.

I'm not sure where you are now, but in my scenario, after 40 the only advantage is AC is job security.

[Inverted2]

I declined an interview in mid 2018. I have no regrets. I would have been served a 2 year layoff during the Kung Flu which made me not regret my decision. It’s not all about pay. My days off and life outside of work is more important. I’ve done my share of reserve, CDs, weekends and holidays. I have no desire to go back to that.

Best of luck to those that want to go though!

[Curiousflyer]

Internal AC chat groups are filled with comments from new hires, that are utterly shocked with how bad the working conditions are. It’s a constant stream of: How do I not get paid more when I worked another day? (Yes you can work on a day off and not get paid), Why did it take 10 hours of my time, 20 emails, and a 6 month wait to get my expenses paid?, How long can I be extended on Reserve? I flew throughout the night, how is that not a red eye? Do I actually have to work 23 days this month?

So overall, I’d say that most new hires coming in are NOT well educated for what they are getting into, with some very skewed career expectations. Time will tell if people stay or go, the new generation has no problem quitting jobs and going somewhere else.

[DanWEC]

Well, everywhere sucks as a junior. It just plain sucks even harder that we have to do this 3-4 times to get to your retirement airline.

It is strange how in North America however we also stack the junior level schedule with very low salary and (Up till recently, in the US) a chasm between FO and Capt pay. I thought this was normal until I started looking globally at the pay scales of Emirates, etc. They're much more even, junior to senior, and seat to seat. You don't have the carrot and handcuffs we do here. (Is that a vegetarian onlyfans page??)

Anyhow, If I was 30 or under I'd likely go to AC. Being older it just doesn't make sense to go through all that again to barely break even at 65.

[throwawaycorporate]

Internal AC chat groups are filled with comments from new hires, that are utterly shocked with how bad the working conditions are. It’s a constant stream of: How do I not get paid more when I worked another day? (Yes you can work on a day off and not get paid), Why did it take 10 hours of my time, 20 emails, and a 6 month wait to get my expenses paid?, How long can I be extended on Reserve? I flew throughout the night, how is that not a red eye? Do I actually have to work 23 days this month?

So overall, I’d say that most new hires coming in are NOT well educated for what they are getting into, with some very skewed career expectations. Time will tell if people stay or go, the new generation has no problem quitting jobs and going somewhere else.

How can you work 23 days in a month? Isn't minimum days off at virtually every company 12? So no more than 19 days on in a month

[canadian_aviator_4]

23 days: Sounds like my grandpa telling me he walked uphill both ways to school in his underwear.

[Fanblade]

23 days: Sounds like my grandpa telling me he walked uphill both ways to school in his underwear.

Junior wide body block. SIM and ART.

It’s possible

[PositiveRate27]

No cap on max days for the WB plus training is put on top of your block and doesn’t count towards your days/hours for the month. 23 days is completely possible if the stars align.

These are the typical things that catch lots of people off guard once they get to AC. The contract is full of stuff like this.

[schnitzel2k3]

More people need to do what you just did or things will never change

Pretty sure they still had flat pay, it was just the bottom 2 years cutoff - you still had 2 years of relatively low flat pay. May have been marginally more pallatable for the pilot group had it not been a trojan horse filled with gotchas. When a company strategically drops an offer - it's likely not a good thing.

"Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again." G.W.B

You're dealing with skilled and toxic negotiators on the management side - who see massive bonuses when you fall short. The trick going forward will be to strike (strategic offer - not necessarily pilot walkouts or Trudy will spank ya) at the right time, negotiate with a stronger bargaining committee, and keep the contract renewal short, particularly in this favourable market.

[a2btrail]

More people need to do what you just did or things will never change

Pretty sure they still had flat pay, it was just the bottom 2 years cutoff - you still had 2 years of relatively low flat pay. May have been marginally more pallatable for the pilot group had it not been a trojan horse filled with gotchas. When a company strategically drops an offer - it's likely not a good thing.

"Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again." G.W.B

You're dealing with skilled and toxic negotiators on the management side - who see massive bonuses when you fall short. The trick going forward will be to strike (strategic offer - not necessarily pilot walkouts or Trudy will spank ya) at the right time, negotiate with a stronger bargaining committee, and keep the contract renewal short, particularly in this favourable market.

Bingo

[Curiousflyer]

23 days: Sounds like my grandpa telling me he walked uphill both ways to school in his underwear.

You’ve proved my point exactly. Currently looking at a 330 FO’s schedule this month and they are flying 21 days. In theory they could have 2 sims and annual training (1 at home day and 1 in the office). They could have done 25 days this month (I’m counting the at home study day).