How important is lifestyle?

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Airtids
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How important is lifestyle?

Post by Airtids »

We're a small mom'n'pop operation in Nelson, B.C. and are currently in the process of setting up an AMO. As a small operation, we don't have the resources to compete financially with the Spar Aerospace and KFC sized operations, but what we can offer is lifestyle second to none. It seems that the younger guys still spend a lot of time chasing the almighty buck, and the older guys (and gals) have figured out that there is more to life than $$. Seems pretty common in life in general, not just this crazy business.

My question is: Am I out to lunch in thinking that we have a hope in hell of finding an experienced engineer interested in working in a place like this for a salary in the $40-50,000 range, or are there a few experienced folks who may be interested in 'easing' themselves into retirement. What do you think the best way to recruit for this position would be. Don't get me wrong: I understand that the bills have to be paid, and we have to feel good about the remuneration we feel we deserve, but just how important is the other part of the equation to most folks?
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Post by Riverat »

I consider it to be very important. I would love to work and live in nelson. Although I am just a apprentice who loves skiing, biking etc. I am sure there must be some older experienced guys willing to accept that wage in exchange for living in paradise. Just tell them they get pow days off. Haha ;)
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Post by Bullet Remington »

AirTids:

Feel free to differ, but to me, lifestyle means jack squat!. I've worked in some really crappy holes! In fact volunteered to do additional tours, all for one reason, and that of course was the coin.

If the money's there, I can put up with some really crappy locations/working conditions.

If the lifestyle is laid back, relaxed, and nice scenery, that's great. Unfortunately, I can't eat any of that! Nor does it pay my morgage, my bank payments, nor provide top notch hospital benefits for my wife.

So bascially, Lifestyle means little. Money talks and BS walks. At least on the maintenance side of the business. And quite frankly, given the large amount of driver movement, I believe that adage applies to the ops side!

You will, eventually get an engineer. But as I've always said, One gets what one pays for. Unfortunate, but a fact of the business!

Good Luck to you, I do hope you find someone to fit your company!

BR
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Post by Airtids »

Thanks for the replies.

Bullet, I totally appreciate what you're saying. Given you've worked in some serious $hitholes, looking back would you be willing to make a financial sacrifice in order to raise your kids in a better location, or 'lay down roots' or feel a real connection to your community? Also, what do you think fair compensation is for someone experienced (ie, trustworthy, motivated, professional) to maintain a fleet of four small piston aircraft over an eight month season?

What do you think the underlying reason for chasing the buck at the expense of the rest of your quality of life was? Not digging at you, really just curious. You're absolutely right about the ops side of things as well. However, we've been entertaining resumes from 20,000 hr corporate guys who are looking to get out. You just nevewr know.
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Post by spillvalve »

life style has somepart to do with where I've chosen to work.
however 40-50k a year is not going to make me move to Nelson, sorry.
Even if it is a mom and pop operation that only has a few machines and seasonal work. If I was going to move there, pack up my family, buya house, we would be lookingat something like 60-65k a year plus truck and gas.


All mtce.engineers are WHORES we doit for the money.

lifestyle is important, but so is money, and with the ever and rapidly rising costs of every thing, 40 k is not a lot of money.
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Post by Airtids »

Sounds just like pilots!
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Post by spillvalve »

Sorry if you don't like the responses, But thats the way it is.

TC has take the fun out of Aviation. NO MORE GOOD OLD TIMES,

If it can't be fun then you might as well get paid for it.
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Post by Airtids »

The responses are pretty much what I was expecting. I understand how the world works. I am a little bit surprised that more folks don't think along the same lines as I do. More than once I've walked away from the big bucks in order to be more personally satisfied. I can't imagine raising my daughter in a different scenario. Hope I never have to.

I lost my dad when I was 14, and I think I learned through that experience that there are no guarantees that the sun will rise again tomorrow, so you better enjoy how you're living today. Money in the bank means nothing if you're not around to spend and enjoy it. If you're sacrificing today in oreder to make $$ for tomorrow, and tomorrow never comes, then what? Life offers so much more. Just my personal philosophy, obviously not for everyone.

In our shop, the laughter leaking through the doors far outweighs the cursing. We have a good time out here because I think we tend to attract the same kind of folks. Lifestyle oriented. You're partly right, though; When it stops being fun GET OUT regardless of what you're getting paid.
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Post by Cat Driver »

You are in a very difficult position Airtids, there was a time in aviation where one could go into business and build on doing a good job and a loyal cusomer base.

Now it is all about paper work and rules and regulations and cowing to a regulator who really have no agenda other than protecting their own jobs and power base.

In that you are setting up an AMO have you thought of offering a position to an engineer based on profit sharing?

That is not a partnership it is incentive motivation.

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Post by KISS_MY_TCAS »

spillvalve wrote:All mtce.engineers are WHORES we doit for the money.
:smt023
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Post by Airtids »

Cat Driver wrote:You are in a very difficult position Airtids, there was a time in aviation where one could go into business and build on doing a good job and a loyal cusomer base.

Now it is all about paper work and rules and regulations and cowing to a regulator who really have no agenda other than protecting their own jobs and power base.

In that you are setting up an AMO have you thought of offering a position to an engineer based on profit sharing?

That is not a partnership it is incentive motivation.

Cat
Nope. Good idea though. How many folks do you think would be willing to take on the kind of risk I've decided to take on? How would you structure something like that?
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Post by Bullet Remington »

Airtids wrote:Thanks for the replies.

Bullet, I totally appreciate what you're saying. Given you've worked in some serious $hitholes, looking back would you be willing to make a financial sacrifice in order to raise your kids in a better location, or 'lay down roots' or feel a real connection to your community? Also, what do you think fair compensation is for someone experienced (ie, trustworthy, motivated, professional) to maintain a fleet of four small piston aircraft over an eight month season?

What do you think the underlying reason for chasing the buck at the expense of the rest of your quality of life was? Not digging at you, really just curious. You're absolutely right about the ops side of things as well. However, we've been entertaining resumes from 20,000 hr corporate guys who are looking to get out. You just nevewr know.

From my perspective it matters naught whether or not the season is 8 months nor 12 months. The basic reality is that the individual must be there, year round in order to be available. So from my perspective the position is a year round job. I assume you are impling that you won't need the individual for 4 monyhs of the year?

If so just what does that individual live on for the remainder of the year? Certainly won't be his/her savings, they won't have any, based upon a 40 - 50 K salary.

Personally, AT, I AIN'T opening my tool box for $20.00 to 25.00 bucks an hour. In all honesty, I make AND clear more then that working part time!

As for "community" conection, I grew up in a small town (1100 people) where everybody knew ya and everything about ya. (Ya = me) Frankly, I hated it! I have lived in this neighnour hood and this camp for 6 years. I don't know one of my neighbours by sight, and olny one by his first name! (I don't know his last name nor that of his wife! And I like that! I leave them alone and the folks around here leave me alone! If I wanted "lifetyle or roots" I would never had gotten into this racket! Or I could easily move back to the rock, buy a 2400 sq ft house and two car garage for $30 K and vegetae. But I like the opportunity this business has to pick and choose.
That opportunity has given me the opportunity to to retire from FULL TIME work, (about a months and two weeks ago) while earning approximate 15 K MORE then your company is offering for salary. To to[ that off, I bought a little 5000 sq ft play shop and I have that full with a C210, a PA28R-T201 and a Bell Jet Box B2. All privately owned, and 6 more waiting.

The reason? I charge MORE then the AMO nexe(int door, and I provide quality service.

There is a sign inside my shop; I have two prices and levels of service. 1) Fast and cheap - U won't like the quality, but you'll like the price; 2) Slow, thourgh, correct and highest in Quality. Cost alot more, you'll like the final product, you won't like the price! - YOU DECIDE WHAT YOU PREFER.It's kinda funny really! Nobody chooses # 1.

From my perspective, your company's offer is 20K to 35 K too low.

Then again, I've been around for along time and have evry available license cludin Comm. Driver)EXCEPT THE E license, so I can get my prices.

Again AT, I maintain that a company gets what they pay for. You will get someone to take tha job for that pay. But eventually, you'll be looking again! Cheap is only good when one gets something they want! The more they get it, the quicker their preference changes!Here's good question to ask yourself, and Mom and Pop. Do we want the aircraft repaired and maintained legally, correctly and dependabllly OR do we want it signed out so TC leaves us alone?



Again, I do wish you and your company nothing but good news and the best of luck!!
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Post by Cat Driver »

" Nope. Good idea though. How many folks do you think would be willing to take on the kind of risk I've decided to take on? "

I can't answer that question, but you only need one.

Bullet has the right idea aim for those who want quality not quantity.

Once you aquire an AMO you can start building a customer base of airplane owners who want quality.

Remember the fastest growing segment of private aircraft ownership is the homebuilt machines. These people also need hired help to build their projects and that segment of aviation does not have near as much bureaucratic sh.t to wade through.

If I were younger I would think of working with you because Nelson is truly a stunningly beautiful airport with endless possibilities for making a living if you go after the high rollers from Europe.

Now as to life style I did manage to end up with a comfortable nest to retire in.

When I need to think about things I sit here.....


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ ... 010660.jpg

Cat
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Post by Airtids »

Cat:
The palm trees on the deck are a dead giveaway for Lotus land. Looks like a pretty sweet retreat. How does the filter like the dog hair? :wink:

One of the things we've considered from a 'profit sharing' perspective is picking up a project for the slow season, and splitting the profit with the engineer. As has been said to me before, however, you can't factor in all the maybes and what-ifs that arise.

Bullet:
In a lot of respects, we're thinking along the same lines. As I'm one of the guys/gals who straps into our equipment (my wife being one of the others), my standards are pretty high as well: Things get fixed right, not fast, and not cheap (but not gold-plated either). The sign I've got in my hangar reads: "Fast, Cheap, or Good. You can have your aircraft maintained any of the TWO ways above. We recommend Fast and Good." We too plan on raising our rates, and hopefully get to the cream of the clientele.

The unfortunate fact is that we're only on the edge of being big enough to justify our own AMO, and $70,000 plus a truck and fuel just does not compute right now. The salary mentioned is ONLY for our 4 aircraft. All outside maintenance we are able to pull in will be paid on top of the salary. There are another few 'maybes' that come into play which could substantially up the final tally, but as mentioned before, you can't even talk about that. As Cat alluded to, there is LOTS of potential out here, so one of the other things we bring to the table ( besides the great lifestyle. Did I mention that already?) is the opportunity to grow along with us, unless we get bankrupted first!!

Still hoping we find a good fit.
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Post by 195psi »

Airtids,
I think you can and will find and engineer who will come over for what you are offering.
I personnally would not but I know many engineers that go the lifestyle first route. I feel I have the best of both worlds right now and I have always said that being happy, ehjoying your work and having a good family life is worth 10-15k a year.
No crazy shifts, unions, uncaring management this is a real drag.
Howver if you start your ops and have a mansion and flashy cars and lifesttle xpect your staff AME's and pilot's to come asking for $$$.
If you are a mom and pop operation and man of the people you will have to practice what you preach.
Good luck.
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Post by Airtids »

195psi wrote:.
Howver if you start your ops and have a mansion and flashy cars and lifesttle xpect your staff AME's and pilot's to come asking for $$$.
If you are a mom and pop operation and man of the people you will have to practice what you preach.
Good luck.
No worries there. My pride and joy:

Image

My house is pretty nice, though, once you get around the chickens!
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Post by Bullet Remington »

Geez!! Just how much are "they" paying a freakin Huff and Puff Driver these days???? :?:

I have to drive American stuff! :?

I just can't afford three ex-wives, four firl friends, three daughters, two sons, AND a Toyota Land cruiser!! :cry: :cry:

But I'm hopin!! Maybe some day!! :D :D
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Post by Airtids »

My granny left it to me! :P :D I hear new ones are going for $40,000. I keep thinking about stories of affordable warbirds. Maybe.... nah!
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Post by tiny »

40 to 50 a year sounds all right, as an AME M1 license for two years I'm only just clearing 35/year gross.... and that really is gross. And thats working at one of the biggest turbo prop charter outfits in the west.
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Post by wrenchturner »

Hi Airtids

I know for me, lifestyle has always been a prime factor. If I remember from a previous topic way back, our kids are the same age, maybe even the same birthday?? I would love the opportunity to raise her in a place like Nelson. Is the salary you're offering enough to cover the cost of living in Nelson? I have no idea what the costs there are like. If it is, there are people like me out there, we don't all go after the almighty dollar. Good luck in your search.
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Post by twotter »

Hey tids..

One of the problems that will arise is that to get someone who will do the job right, you have to make sure they can have a decent standard of living. Can someone afford a mortgage at the wages you are offering, and at the same time put the kids into hockey? Most retirement aged guys are not going to want to burn the midnight oil when one of the planes are broke, so you might want to look for someone with a bit less experience, but still has the drive to get it done so the machine can fly in the morning.

I know it's tough for you as well, but you may have to take a chance that the outside work will show up. If you hire the right person who can make a great impression on the private owners, you can probably pull in the business to make it worth doing.

I hope it all works out for you in the end. I'm always here if you have any questions.

Cheers..
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Post by J31 »

AirTids, don’t count out the young guys :wink: ! I was working for a mom and pop operator with a fresh engineer’s license at 24 years old. A great experience as DOM and only engineer of a fleet of 6 singles! Yes they may move on but most will be keen to do a good job while they are there.
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40/50k

Post by KKboy »

I understand the problem and think you should be successful if you are not in a big rush about it.
You will obviously not get any of the gunslinger types who are climbing the ladder in the endeavours. You are probably correct in an engineer who is looking for a slower pace and change of scenery.
Older guys looking for the slower pace bring a wealth of experience to the table and can help with the corporate strategy which is a bonus.

Stay away from the exmilitary in your business they won't have the history, I would just keep phishing and develop a package organized around some one who wants to stay active but not necessarily stressed.

Accomodations and transport would be essential plus a lenghty leave entitlement.
Most of these guys are already OK from a pension or savings perspective.
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Post by Airtids »

Thanks guys!! We got our AMO approved Friday (phew!!), and have found a workable solution with an engineer, although certainly not what I was expecting/envisioned. This particular individual was able to identify our needs better than I was. It may actually save us a whack, at first blush anyways.

Also, it would seem as though lifestyle DOES play quite a role, at least for some folks. I've entertained about a half-dozen serious inquiries, from new, experienced, as well as sort of middle-of-the-road types.

Once again, Avcanada and all it's users has proven to be a phenomenally useful resource. Moreso once you get out of the Gen and Misc forums. Cheers, all.
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Post by Bullet Remington »

Airtids:

Great, glad to hear things are progressing for you and your company! A good engineer SHOULD be able to save you and the company a fair amount of coin, based upon the utilization, operating hidtory etc, of the machines and the company.

And, there's diddly wrong with extending the TBO of the engine OH periods!! Having an available engineer to chart/record the engine conditions and to maintain the tweaking of the machines will or should prove to be quite valuable, both in terms of maintenance costs over a three to five year period, and in terms of dispatch rate reliability!

I wish you well, and the company success!

BR.

Check out my new play house at http://www.avtechcanada.ca!

I must be nuts to get into this crap again at my age!!
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