Flair Airlines - Planes seized

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Duke86
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Duke86 »

fish4life wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:18 am
FlyGiep wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:09 am Random forum poster that only joined 21 Feb this year, yes lets beleive all he says !👏
Normally your sarcasm would be valid but thin margins asked about Flair defaulting payments on one of the 4 tails that were seized with the correct registration 3 weeks ago.
Check their previous posts from February
Was C-FLKJ the fourth aircraft that was seized? I've only seen the registration of the three that had their C of R cancelled in the other thread.
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Sharklasers
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Sharklasers »

LKJ is another airbourne fin. Pretty safe to assume that 3 weeks ago they were in arrears on that one three weeks ago as well if we believe the globe and mail article.
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Floop
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Floop »

So why wasn't FLKJ seized as well? Last it flew was this morning. If the lease wasn't being paid and it's the same lessor that already took action and claims the company has been in default on all loans for months, why wasn't that plane seized?

I'm not disagreeing ThinMargins has said some credible stuff and it shouldn't be dismissed, but this whole situation doesn't make a ton of sense whichever side you believe, so clearly there's a little lying going on from both sides.

We should all be rooting for flair and hoping everyone keeps their jobs.
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cdnavater
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by cdnavater »

Floop wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:18 am So why wasn't FLKJ seized as well? Last it flew was this morning. If the lease wasn't being paid and it's the same lessor that already took action and claims the company has been in default on all loans for months, why wasn't that plane seized?

I'm not disagreeing ThinMargins has said some credible stuff and it shouldn't be dismissed, but this whole situation doesn't make a ton of sense whichever side you believe, so clearly there's a little lying going on from both sides.

We should all be rooting for flair and hoping everyone keeps their jobs.
Logically, the fin in questions was likely paid up to date, the statement released by the lessor indicated millions(plural) were owed and it was approximately 1 million that was five days late. It’s possible the payments that were made, covered the fifth one or it’s also possible the leasing company only had a place for four of them, so better to leave it for now with revenue being generated, albeit risky revenue.
I would say Flair has no option for those remaining seven aircraft but to be on time or early for the payments which is a conundrum because if they are late to 777 for those lease payments it becomes more debt and further violates the CTA ruling.
It’s starting however, if the airport was delaying offload due to past due payments, literally holding the passengers hostage, the rest will follow suit.
Nobody will want to be last in line to get paid, bankruptcy creditors usually end up with pennies on the dollar, especially a company that owns nothing. What collateral do they have, seriously, all aircraft leased!
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by Old fella »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:14 am My guess is Flair is done.

The budding banking crisis all but ensures weaker co’s will be impaired


Had the aircraft leasing market continued to be soft as it was during COVID kinda doubt the leasing companies would have been quick to seize aircraft. They could no doubt lease now at much more than Flair is currently paying, hence quick to step in and recover their loss. Having said that tis obvious Flair has an ongoing cash flow issues and perhaps the least area that would have given them grief was being tardy on the lease schedule. You have to meet payroll, fuel,catering and operational items. Perhaps their accounts at Nav Canada, Airports are in arrears as well, who knows. Looking at Flightradar24, their flights are still running at scheduled destinations to date so this may suggest some sort of operational stability. Personally I think they will survive by rationalizing their network to areas/destinations that give them good yields(they know where it is). Also as far a travelling public goes if there are no more”surprises “ bad memories fade quickly especially if the ticket prices remain attractive. Bold expansion plans and more aircraft lease acquisitions are no doubt off the table indefinitely or until things get much significantly better.

Best of luck to them going forward.
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

TORONTO — Flair Airlines has filed a $50-million lawsuit against several plane-leasing companies over what it claims were unlawful seizures of four of its aircraft over the weekend.

Image


https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/fl ... 6c2a&ei=12
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golden hawk
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by golden hawk »

https://kitchener.citynews.ca/national- ... es-6702701

“Flair launches $50-million lawsuit against leasing companies following plane seizures“
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Sharklasers
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Sharklasers »

cdnavater wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:36 am
Floop wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:18 am So why wasn't FLKJ seized as well? Last it flew was this morning. If the lease wasn't being paid and it's the same lessor that already took action and claims the company has been in default on all loans for months, why wasn't that plane seized?

I'm not disagreeing ThinMargins has said some credible stuff and it shouldn't be dismissed, but this whole situation doesn't make a ton of sense whichever side you believe, so clearly there's a little lying going on from both sides.

We should all be rooting for flair and hoping everyone keeps their jobs.
Logically, the fin in questions was likely paid up to date, the statement released by the lessor indicated millions(plural) were owed and it was approximately 1 million that was five days late. It’s possible the payments that were made, covered the fifth one or it’s also possible the leasing company only had a place for four of them, so better to leave it for now with revenue being generated, albeit risky revenue.
I would say Flair has no option for those remaining seven aircraft but to be on time or early for the payments which is a conundrum because if they are late to 777 for those lease payments it becomes more debt and further violates the CTA ruling.
It’s starting however, if the airport was delaying offload due to past due payments, literally holding the passengers hostage, the rest will follow suit.
Nobody will want to be last in line to get paid, bankruptcy creditors usually end up with pennies on the dollar, especially a company that owns nothing. What collateral do they have, seriously, all aircraft leased!

For what it’s worth now it seems that the 3rd party ground handlers were the issue last night.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/s ... ZIZgmYvPDQ
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YC87DRVR
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by YC87DRVR »

https://globalnews.ca/news/9551446/flai ... statement/

Months of missed payments and millions in owed. Seems to make more sense than the lies Mr. Jones is spewing.
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by rookiepilot »

golden hawk wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:18 am https://kitchener.citynews.ca/national- ... es-6702701

“Flair launches $50-million lawsuit against leasing companies following plane seizures“
PR Stunt.
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

I'm no expert, nor am I that smart at math and such (that's why I'm a pilot)... but how does one sell a $89 fare from YYZ to YVR and stay in business?
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Last edited by RoAF-Mig21 on Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

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Just another canuck
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by Just another canuck »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:25 am I'm no expert, nor am I that smart at math and such (that's why I'm a pilot)... but how does one sellf an $89 fare from YYZ to YVR and stay in business?
9 bucks from YQT-YYZ. It’s ridiculous.
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

Just another canuck wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:44 am
RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:25 am I'm no expert, nor am I that smart at math and such (that's why I'm a pilot)... but how does one sellf an $89 fare from YYZ to YVR and stay in business?
9 bucks from YQT-YYZ. It’s ridiculous.
We're all shocked they're not doing well financially. How many LCCs survived in Canada?
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by rookiepilot »

rigpiggy wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:43 am And the good times keep on rolling

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/s ... -1.6779457
Will Flair sue them too?
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by Dias »

golden hawk wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:18 am https://kitchener.citynews.ca/national- ... es-6702701

“Flair launches $50-million lawsuit against leasing companies following plane seizures“
I can't believe they don't shut up
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by newlygrounded »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:14 am My guess is Flair is done.

The budding banking crisis all but ensures weaker co’s will be impaired
Rookie has predicted 17 of the last 2 recessions :smt040
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by Floop »

newlygrounded wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:17 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:14 am My guess is Flair is done.

The budding banking crisis all but ensures weaker co’s will be impaired
Rookie has predicted 17 of the last 2 recessions :smt040
Rookie knows more about being a commercial pilot and the commercial aviation industry than the average commercial pilot does. Gotta assume he's an expert on financial crises too.
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Re: Flair Airlines - Planes seized

Post by rookiepilot »

Floop wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:15 pm
newlygrounded wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:17 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:14 am My guess is Flair is done.

The budding banking crisis all but ensures weaker co’s will be impaired
Rookie has predicted 17 of the last 2 recessions :smt040
Rookie knows more about being a commercial pilot and the commercial aviation industry than the average commercial pilot does. Gotta assume he's an expert on financial crises too.
I’m absolutely loving this! Keep going!
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by braaap Braap »

flying4dollars wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:19 pm
braaap Braap wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:14 am
flying4dollars wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:52 pm

Doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong though :smt102
For sure. Nobody will know till it happens. But if you're a betting person, who are you going to bet on a) the company who has had planes repossessed (in the latest of a chronicle of sketchy events) or the company that has a record of profitability and while shrinking isn't flashing warning signs like flair. Flair's in his name ffs.
Just to be clear, what sketchy events are you referring to? Westjet's biggest competition is Flair. Not AC. WJ has a history of battling with Flair. Yes, WJ has a record of profitability, but I think it took them a number of years to get there. Flair could very well be on its way to doing that. They are kind of following in WJ's shoes which is why they feel so threatened. I am not pointing fingers or claiming to know what's going on, but just because 'Flair' is in his user handle, again, biased or not, doesn't mean he's wrong. You're right though, nobody will know the whole truth and time will tell all. As far as the betting thing, this doesn't have to do with betting on one vs the other. That's not even close to the point of this. Unless I'm misunderstanding your reference of course.
Sorry for being vague. Sketchy events being: CTA investigation. 777 partners involvement. The business loan at 18%. Law suits between major shareholders. The 3 planes that got delivered, never flew, and then passed along to Austria/Sunwing. And now the 4 repossessions. I'm not on team "down with flair" But I think the OP was being biased and silly when they were Westjet is in a worse position.
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