Flair Airlines - Planes seized

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boeingboy
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4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by boeingboy »

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michellepeters
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by michellepeters »

Is this the beginning of the end? Or just some drama that will go away?
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Vanguard
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Vanguard »

Can’t wait to hear the management guys get on and say how good their airline is for stability and that they’re the first airline to set the bar for raises in the Canadian industry all the while many of their managers had applications at mainline carriers. 😉

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GRK2
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by GRK2 »

You must work for WS...this has ONEX written all over it. Dirty pool is a speciality of that Corp...
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fish4life
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by fish4life »

GRK2 wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:04 pm You must work for WS...this has ONEX written all over it. Dirty pool is a speciality of that Corp...
A lessor can’t repo a plane for no reason, the article also says Flair has initiated a payment since so that must be part of it.
Also what does Onex have to do with it?
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Sharklasers
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Sharklasers »

fish4life wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:11 pm
GRK2 wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:04 pm You must work for WS...this has ONEX written all over it. Dirty pool is a speciality of that Corp...
A lessor can’t repo a plane for no reason, the article also says Flair has initiated a payment since so that must be part of it.
Also what does Onex have to do with it?
Grasping at straws because this is very bad news and he is concerned for his job.
I hope it all works out for everyone and if nothing else it seems their are a lot of jobs to go around right now.
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YC87DRVR
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by YC87DRVR »

Beginning of the end. Whether Onex is the root cause or not (they’re not), like a previous poster said you can’t just seize a plane for no reason. Clearly payments weren’t being made.
No matter how the man in the van down by the river wants to spin it, airlines don’t forget to make payments and they don’t willingly skip payments when times are good.
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Sharklasers
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Sharklasers »



tbaylx wrote: ↑
The thing about lessors is when you stop paying them they take their aircraft back and then you aren't flying anymore.

All our aircraft in our fleet are operating when they haven't been hit by ground service equipment :roll: and we already have the first 3 additional spring aircraft on the property. Believe whoever you'd like, but the fact that we're operating our fleet and continuing to onboard additional aircraft would seem to indicate that we're paying our lessors and that you're posting rumors to drive an agenda.

Aged like milk.
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Dias
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Dias »

Where do you think he go to next?
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Bede
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Bede »

michellepeters wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 11:47 am Is this the beginning of the end? Or just some drama that will go away?
Sadly, this is it. Canada 3000 lasted less than a business day. Once the first planes get seized, the fuelers stop fueling and operations cease. Credit card companies halt advance payment. My guess is by Monday at the latest we'll know.

I feel for the pilots who will be out of work and passengers stranded.
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averageatbest
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by averageatbest »

The article states that Flair is 5 days behind on payments for the planes.
The source told Global News Flair wired money to Airborne on Saturday but was five days behind on payments.
I assume that the 5 days refers to a payment plan for an overdue amount.

It's not a good look, but not a sure sign of collapse.
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fish4life
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by fish4life »

averageatbest wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:50 pm The article states that Flair is 5 days behind on payments for the planes.
The source told Global News Flair wired money to Airborne on Saturday but was five days behind on payments.
I assume that the 5 days refers to a payment plan for an overdue amount.

It's not a good look, but not a sure sign of collapse.
Isolated it’s not but what it does is cause anyone else owed money to demand immediate payment so they don’t get caught being the last after all the money is gone and that run is what shuts down airlines.
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Fanblade
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Fanblade »

averageatbest wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:50 pm The article states that Flair is 5 days behind on payments for the planes.
The source told Global News Flair wired money to Airborne on Saturday but was five days behind on payments.
I assume that the 5 days refers to a payment plan for an overdue amount.

It's not a good look, but not a sure sign of collapse.
Flair is a private company. We have no way of knowing the situation. Even the quote above is meaningless. Flair wired money to Airborne on Saturday. Full payment or a partial payment?

This is the thing. Right now every supplier is going to be very careful with Flair. They are going to limit credit out of caution. It’s standard for suppliers to do this if they think payment might be at risk. This is everyone from airport authorities, Nav Canada, fuelers, leasers and parts suppliers.

It can cause an immediate liquidity problem. Once one company starts to repossess it can start a domino effect. Companies trying to get their money out before a court protects the failing companies assets.

We will just have to watch.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... nes-lease/

For those without a Globe Subscription:

An aircraft leasing company seized four planes operated by Flair Airlines on Saturday for non-payment, causing the cancellation of several of the discount carrier’s flights at the start of the busy March Break travel season.

Working with bailiffs, the leasing company, Dublin-based Airborne Capital Ltd., issued lease termination notices to Flair representatives and grounded four Boeing 737s, two at Toronto Pearson Airport, one in Edmonton and one in Waterloo, Ont. Airborne also leases to Flair another two 737s, which have not been seized.

Flair’s Chief Executive Officer Stephen Jones said in an interview on Saturday that the Edmonton-based discount airline owes about US$1-million on the leases, and decried the seizures as “draconian.”
”We feel pretty aggrieved,” Mr. Jones said. “We think the impact of these actions on our crews and communities is unwarranted. But we are where we are.”

He said Flair fell behind in its lease payments after a “tough” winter on some routes. “We’ve had to manage cash very closely,” he said. “Going through the winter we have at times had to have discussions with them about terms of lease payments,” he said.

Flair leases six planes from Airborne and another five from Bank of China Aviation. Both leasing companies were approaching other airlines to take on the leases for the 11 Flair Boeing 737 passenger jets as recently as February, according to two people familiar with the situation. The Globe is not identifying them because they are not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

Mr. Jones said Flair recently paid its arrears to Bank of China, but failed to come to an agreement with Airborne on four planes.

The aircraft that were being shopped around - 10 737 Max and an older 737 NG - were offered to several airlines, domestic and foreign. Because the aircraft are certified to fly in Canada, they are more attractive to a domestic airline because of the fewer licensing steps required to put them in service.

Canadian airlines that fly the 737 Max include Air Canada, WestJet Airlines, Lynx Air, and Sunwing Airlines. The airlines declined to comment or did not respond to questions.

State-owned Bank of China Aviation declined to comment. Airborne Capital did not respond to messages.

The Boeing 737 Max sells for about US$50-million, and is leased to airlines for monthly charges of about US$350,000 to US$400,000. Before the lease terminations, Flair had 19 737s in its fleet.

Flair plans to fly more than 6,200 flights in July and August of 2023, a 46-per-cent increase over the same months in 2022, according to data provided by Cirium. Mr. Jones said in December, when the fleet consisted of 19 planes, that Flair would have enough aircraft by the summer.

Mr. Jones told reporters in a news conference on March 7 that the Edmonton-based discount airline would be adding six planes to its fleet, and made no mention of the possible loss of the aircraft. He said new routes and more flights were on the way. “Some really great expansion coming into our network,” Mr. Jones said.

Mr. Jones’s promise of six new planes is fewer than the eight he had previously said were to be delivered. This, he said, is because of “both the aircraft availability and our view of the market and pilot availability for that matter. So was a considered decision, but there’ll be six aircraft.”
“We still have the overall goal of getting to 50 aircraft by 2025,” Mr. Jones said. “So we’ll just pace ourselves towards that. But frankly, if we got to 45 or we got the 55, I don’t think it would be that much of a difference because the goal is really to, to prove out the low cost carrier model in Canada. And that’s to say it doesn’t change on one or two aircraft.”
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DanWEC
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by DanWEC »

"Flair leases six planes from Airborne and another five from Bank of China Aviation. Both leasing companies were approaching other airlines to take on the leases for the 11 Flair Boeing 737 passenger jets as recently as February"

Yikes. If that's not ominous I don't know what it. I sincerely hope a solution is reached without folks being out of work. The market share is out there.
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Last edited by DanWEC on Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fish4life
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by fish4life »

DanWEC wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:18 pm "Flair leases six planes from Airborne and another five from Bank of China Aviation. Both leasing companies were approaching other airlines to take on the leases for the 11 Flair Boeing 737 passenger jets as recently as February"

Yikes. I hope a solution is reached without folks being out of work. The market share is out there.
Uh oh, that shows it’s not an isolated incident and makes me think this was the first domino more than one missed payment.
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DanWEC
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by DanWEC »

That's for sure. Repossession is the literal last domino.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Hard to say how this will play out, but I think Bede is right, the next few weeks are critical for the airline. If all the airline vendors stop advancing credit then it's over for Flair.

That being said there is a huge world wide demand for newer narrow body tin. Guessing that the Flair leasing agreements were mostly signed at very favorable rates in the middle of the COVID shutdown, every leasing company is going to look for any out so they can flip the tin for a better monthly rate.

At best the late payment was just careless of Flair management, at worst it's the beginning of the end. Time will tell, but I know several great folks at Flair, I sure hope it works out for them.
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Just another canuck
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by Just another canuck »

If I stop paying my mortgage, it takes months before the bank takes my house. They didn’t just miss a payment this week. For the lessor to ground the aircraft, this has been an issue for some time.
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SPR
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Re: 4 Flair aircraft seized

Post by SPR »

Boy, do I feel like Cassandra now, after being pooh-poohed for months by the Flair fans after posting tangible data questioning the long-term viability of the operation and their outrageous growth plans. I mean, the G&M article states that Flair has only been operating 19 aircraft, with three parked, so I feel quite vindicated about that whole thread I made about their growth stopping.
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