Is this the first AIP to not be in the benefit of the company?

[a220hereicome]

ALPA is 100% behind portability

They are not. You should read their press material on this. To summarize, “One foreigner flying our airplanes in the US is too many”

There may be a lot of valid reasons to merge with ALPA, but an open border policy for Canadian pilots isn’t one of them.

Maybe a good question to ask a US ALPA rep at the roadshow.

[noreasterYHZ]

ALPA is 100% behind portability

They are not. You should read their press material on this. To summarize, “One foreigner flying our airplanes in the US is too many”

There may be a lot of valid reasons to merge with ALPA, but an open border policy for Canadian pilots isn’t one of them.

Maybe a good question to ask a US ALPA rep at the roadshow.

I know for a FACT they want portability. I heard it from the horse's mouth

ALPA also says there is "no pilot shortage"

What they say in public and actually do are 2 different things

It's called strategy. Something Canuckistan needs to figure out

[a220hereicome]

I know for a FACT they want portability. I heard it from the horse's mouth


What they say in public and actually do are 2 different things

I think they’re selling you snake oil, and you’re buying it.

Like I said, a great question to ask a ALPA Washington rep at a roadshow:

“ALPA has come out strongly against easing immigration restrictions on foreign pilots flying in the US. Will Air Canada pilots joining ALPA change this ALPA policy in dealing with the US government?”

I think the answer is no. They don’t want foreign pilots, like us, flying their airplanes and taking away their kids’ jobs. The same way ALPA came out against foreign pilots flying for Sunwing in Canada.

[Freshredmeat]

You're not picking up what I'm laying down.

If you want to try and go work in the US, best of luck to you. I'm saying that most who shell out the $5000, $10,000 or $20,000 US for this process will never see that money again. The lawyers will gladly take your money, but their success rate so far is essentially zero. Ask them that very pointed question! And there has been no legislation passed in the US to change that success rate. Even the letter from that Hong Kong firm posted elsewhere on this forum speaks only of rumours. And you're going to hand over 5 large to a HK law firm based on that?

What is this guy's deal?

That law firm now has over 50 approvals. I personally know of WJ & AC pilots with approvals and are waiting for their green cards

Why do you spend so much time deliberately trying to de leverage this pilot group?

Please do not go anywhere near a union. Please

[CaptDukeNukem]

You're not picking up what I'm laying down.

If you want to try and go work in the US, best of luck to you. I'm saying that most who shell out the $5000, $10,000 or $20,000 US for this process will never see that money again. The lawyers will gladly take your money, but their success rate so far is essentially zero. Ask them that very pointed question! And there has been no legislation passed in the US to change that success rate. Even the letter from that Hong Kong firm posted elsewhere on this forum speaks only of rumours. And you're going to hand over 5 large to a HK law firm based on that?

What is this guy's deal?

That law firm now has over 50 approvals. I personally know of WJ & AC pilots with approvals and are waiting for their green cards

Why do you spend so much time deliberately trying to de leverage this pilot group?

Please do not go anywhere near a union. Please

Agreed, I personally know of 2 pilots who got approved. The law firm does a free consult and will tell you if you are a good candidate prior to forking over a stack of cash.

You need to meet the requirements of the EB-2. That’s it, end of story.

[Bede]

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alpa is about as incompetent as it gets. Canadian North, Jazz, Westjet, Bearskin, Calm Air etc have received what in WAWCON increases ?

WJ saw a 13.6% increase in total compensation in CA1 with ALPA. WJ ALPA also didn't agree to a 10% wage cut for cargo ops during a cargo boom.

[Rooster69]

WJ has a cargo division?

[skyhighh]

WJ has a cargo division?

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

[eurotrash]

WJ has a cargo division?

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

[NotDirty!]

WJ has a cargo division?

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

Yes! If they didn’t capture it, someone else would swoop in and take it from them!!

[flyingfool]

Yes. They just converted a few 37s

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

Yes! If they didn’t capture it, someone else would swoop in and take it from them!!

How much of pay cut did WJ pilots take to fly cargo?

Zero

[cdnavater]

Did they need to "capture" that flying at a pay discount?

Yes! If they didn’t capture it, someone else would swoop in and take it from them!!

How much of pay cut did WJ pilots take to fly cargo?

Zero

Devil’s advocate, is it because you were already paid less than your competition?

[Bede]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

[cdnavater]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

[Bede]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

[cdnavater]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

Thanks, I was under the impression that AC couldn’t raise the pay because it was already much higher than yours.
Did the gap narrow that much with your last(first ALPA) contract?
What is going on behind the scenes then, with all the WJ pilots going to AC, it’ll take them quite awhile to pull ahead if they are counting on widebody pay to bring them up. I do understand the upgrade time is significantly less but I’m hearing some senior pilots are leaving, some who would be close to upgrading around the same time.

[Protonpilot]

What makes you think that WJ NB compensation is less than AC?

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

The vacation comparison is apples to oranges, and misleading IMHO.

AC vacation is based on 7 days per week. So a pilot with 10 years of service gets 38 days (4 weeks plus 10 stats) all paid at 2:55 per day. This works out to 111 hours of vacation pay in the year. A pilot with 25 years gets an extra week, this is the maximum allotment which is 131 hours of pay.

Reading the WJ contract (I don't work there), WJ vacation is based on 5 paid days per week, with two days unpaid tacked on to each 'vacation block'. A pilot with 10 years gets 4 blocks, which is 20 days paid at 4:30 per day. That's 90 hours of vacation pay in the year. This is the maximum which is reached after 7 YOS.

If you take only one week of vacation at AC it messes up your month because of the bidding system, you only get 21 hours of credit and usually need to work a lot of unproductive days for the rest of the month depending on fleet type and seniority because of the bidding system. Two weeks or more of vacation in a month seems to work better.

No idea how vacation affects your monthly schedule at WJ.

[cdnavater]

Oh, I’m sorry can you show me how is isn’t?
I was under the impression you were paid less than AC, if you guys get a big raise with this negotiation, will you still be competitive?
The AC cargo department is on wide bodies so probably not really comparing apples to apples anyway.

AC has slightly higher hourly rates, a pension (10.5%) and paid disability. WJ has 20% savings plan (yes we can debate this forever, but 20% is 20%), stock option replacement ($10298 capt, $73xx for FO), vacation of 4.5hr/day vs 2.83hr/day. At one point WJ also had better schedules on average, paid commuting, but that's gone the way of the dodo bird.

WB, AC is way more. NB, not so much.

The vacation comparison is apples to oranges, and misleading IMHO.

AC vacation is based on 7 days per week. So a pilot with 10 years of service gets 38 days (4 weeks plus 10 stats) all paid at 2:55 per day. This works out to 111 hours of vacation pay in the year. A pilot with 25 years gets an extra week, this is the maximum allotment which is 131 hours of pay.

Reading the WJ contract (I don't work there), WJ vacation is based on 5 paid days per week, with two days unpaid tacked on to each 'vacation block'. A pilot with 10 years gets 4 blocks, which is 20 days paid at 4:30 per day. That's 90 hours of vacation pay in the year. This is the maximum which is reached after 7 YOS.

If you take only one week of vacation at AC it messes up your month because of the bidding system, you only get 21 hours of credit and usually need to work a lot of unproductive days for the rest of the month depending on fleet type and seniority because of the bidding system. Two weeks or more of vacation in a month seems to work better.

No idea how vacation affects your monthly schedule at WJ.

Is the WJ 20 days including stats? I sure hope not.

[Protonpilot]

Is the WJ 20 days including stats? I sure hope not.

You're right. I forgot to add the ten stat days paid at 4:30.

This would give 135 hours of annual vacation pay after 7 YOS at WJ. This is better than the 131 hours of vacation pay at AC which you only reach after 25 YOS. We lost a week of vacation pay in FOS in 2012 and have never gotten it back.

My point was that just saying 4:30/day and 2:55/day doesn't tell the full story. Vacation pay is better at WJ, but not 50% better. More like 5% or 10% better.

[Art Vandelay]

The most I ever worked in a month with a 5 day block of vacation at WJ was 11 days, since the narrowbody max is 16 and vacation days actually count towards your monthly maximum. Looking through the blocks here at AC and seeing what some people fly in a month with a 7 day block of vacation, some are working 14-15 days, so it is significantly different if you compound that over a year after even once you reach 10-15-20YOS.

Going into my 7th year before I left, theoretically you could bid one 5 day block of vac a month and 6 months out of the year work 11 days, it's a pretty damn good deal for lifestyle.

Before anyone flames me and says well why did I leave, vacation is just one part of a big equation. I'm happy to be here, just stating the facts.