Negots Committee - Elephant in the room

[Straight2Secondary]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

[TheStig]

So, to summarize, the negotiations team has too many guys with experience and too many guys without experience.

[rudder]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

The Jazz Negots committee measures its years of negotiating experience in decades. ACPA measures theirs in years (or months).

That should just about tell you everything you need to know. Much like flying, there is no substitute for negotiating experience.

Good luck.

[Vanguard]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

The Jazz Negots committee measures its years of negotiating experience in decades. ACPA measures theirs in years (or months).

That should just about tell you everything you need to know. Much like flying, there is no substitute for negotiating experience.

Good luck.

I hear you!
Probably shouldn’t compare Jazz’s NC tho — not like they didn’t sell out the pilot group on the shit 17yr deal.

[rudder]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

The Jazz Negots committee measures its years of negotiating experience in decades. ACPA measures theirs in years (or months).

That should just about tell you everything you need to know. Much like flying, there is no substitute for negotiating experience.

Good luck.

I hear you!
Probably shouldn’t compare Jazz’s NC tho — not like they didn’t sell out the pilot group on the shit 17yr deal.

True. But 2023 may be their chance at redemption. Both scenarios are based on leverage (or lack thereof).

Time will tell.

[ZBBYLW]

Easy to say anyone but those guys. Just curious who you'd give the nod to?

[flyingcanuck]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

The Jazz Negots committee measures its years of negotiating experience in decades. ACPA measures theirs in years (or months).

That should just about tell you everything you need to know. Much like flying, there is no substitute for negotiating experience.

Good luck.

and they've been doing swimmingly...

[Sharklasers]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

The Jazz Negots committee measures its years of negotiating experience in decades. ACPA measures theirs in years (or months).

That should just about tell you everything you need to know. Much like flying, there is no substitute for negotiating experience.

Good luck.

Spoken like a true Jazz A-scaler.

Singing the praise of a negots committee who brought you such hits as:
The 17 year deal.
Most expensive benefits in the industry.
The complete and total destruction of a career worthy wage scale.
Date of hire integration for ggn and skv.
The DC pension.

All in the last 8 years. What will they come up with next. The Jazz negots committee should have been drug out behind the shed years ago.

[Tavpi]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

The Jazz Negots committee measures its years of negotiating experience in decades. ACPA measures theirs in years (or months).

That should just about tell you everything you need to know. Much like flying, there is no substitute for negotiating experience.

Good luck.

Spoken like a true Jazz A-scaler.

Singing the praise of a negots committee who brought you such hits as:
The 17 year deal.
Most expensive benefits in the industry.
The complete and total destruction of a career worthy wage scale.
Date of hire integration for ggn and skv.
The DC pension.

All in the last 8 years. What will they come up with next. The Jazz negots committee should have been drug out behind the shed years ago.

To be fair, we didn't do so well with the 10 yr.......

[Straight2Secondary]

If no one is happy with what ALPA has brought at Jazz or WJ and we have the same monkeys running AC ALPA

Why are we voting in a new union that will be the same dogs breakfast they have proven everywhere else.

[rudder]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

The Jazz Negots committee measures its years of negotiating experience in decades. ACPA measures theirs in years (or months).

That should just about tell you everything you need to know. Much like flying, there is no substitute for negotiating experience.

Good luck.

Spoken like a true Jazz A-scaler.

Singing the praise of a negots committee who brought you such hits as:
The 17 year deal.
Most expensive benefits in the industry.
The complete and total destruction of a career worthy wage scale.
Date of hire integration for ggn and skv.
The DC pension.

All in the last 8 years. What will they come up with next. The Jazz negots committee should have been drug out behind the shed years ago.

Everybody knows there are gross deficiencies in both the Jazz and AC pilot contracts. The history and the reasons are well documented.

Let’s see what either or both groups can achieve at the bargaining table in 2023.

[TheStig]

I like the Negotiations team that ACPA has assembled, but more importantly I like the way the MEC has been conducting itself and its communications with both the company and the pilot group. JR and HE, in my opinion, have been successful as negotiators in the re-openers where they've had little leverage (cost neutral framework) and achieved improvements for the pilot group.

The NC is only as strong as the MEC behind it and the MEC is only as strong as the will of the membership. Voting down the last MOA was an important step for the pilot group which had been voting yes to everything over the past 10 years. However there was very little at stake in the MOA, new hire pay was still substandard, some very minor gains and activation pay delays for about 20 pilots.

The momentum to switch to ALPA has been around for about 5 years and McKay only delayed the move, if anything his heavy handedness only reinforced the need for a change. Since CCAA, ACPA's biggest weakness has been that a small group of like minded MEC/NC members have been consistently able to negotiate contracts with little oversight. Newer members witnessed this with MM's reign, but everyone is still working under the 10 year contract that was the result of secret talks with KV, and that pales in comparison to the damage done by BW and the 'super 7' and TA1.

While opinions online maybe polarizing, most pilots on the line seem to have the opinion that ACPA has run out of goodwill and chances, but aren't actually militant proponents of either union. Switching to ALPA seems like an opportunity to actually move the needle towards improving our lives. Patience is wearing thin at AC (and at WJ maybe even more so?) the pandemic sucked for pilots, the past year of flying has sucked, inflation sucks, smaller airlines and US airlines are all seeing gains.

[flyingcanuck]

If no one is happy with what ALPA has brought at Jazz or WJ and we have the same monkeys running AC ALPA

Why are we voting in a new union that will be the same dogs breakfast they have proven everywhere else.

It's amazing to me how people don't understand that the union won't magically change things. It's about involvement and in this case rebranding. ACPA is dead, a majority have no faith in that brand, don't trust them, and want to start "fresh". Is is really fresh? No. Is it a way to bring people together? Hell yes. Also ALPA is a better union let's be real.

If the members vote let's say 80% in favor in ALPA, itll show the members there is involvement. Which gives the union more leverage and voice. Everyone together is the only way change will happen, and sticking with ACPA there's a lot chance of people getting involved.

It's not that complicated.

[cdnavater]

Is there a date set for voting yet?

[a2btrail]

Is there a date set for voting yet?

Yes starting from April 17 and will run till May 1

[Straight2.Secondary]

If no one is happy with what ALPA has brought at Jazz or WJ and we have the same monkeys running AC ALPA

Why are we voting in a new union that will be the same dogs breakfast they have proven everywhere else.

And by everyone else, I of course exclude the highest paid pilots in the world that are represented by ALPA

I also find it hard to keep up with all the engagements these days. 11 events to educate the membership on this merger? That is way too many!!

ACPA did a great job with the one pre recorded webinar to sell the cargo concessions. That was leadership!! And speaking of which, why don't we get those professional negotiators back?

And that MEC that brought us the "No" vote MOA should make a come back. These new people have no idea what they are doing. A 80% "No" vote doesn't mean ACPA didn't know what they were doing. It just meant we needed to keep trying with acpa. ACPA has brought us 777s and made those 777 captain positions. WJ ALPA has not done that!!

[flyingfool]

If no one is happy with what ALPA has brought at Jazz or WJ and we have the same monkeys running AC ALPA

Why are we voting in a new union that will be the same dogs breakfast they have proven everywhere else.

Lol

A regional carrier that has been demonized by acpa and have been de leveraged time & time again is a comparator to Delta/FedEx/United/Alaska ALPA!!

[unionism101]

So we voted down an MOA with 80%+ in the fall, negotiated by ACPA lead by JR and HE.

Now we have a negots committee still lead by these 2, plus 1 PBS guy, 1 CMSC and 1 guy with an MBA. The PBS guy, CMSC guy and MBA guy have worked on committees for a combined 24 months?Their diapers are still wet and they are at the table for the biggest pilot group in Canada.

Why do we have 2 guys who bring us crap every time and have been a part of every bad deal in the past 7 years being followed by 3 guys who don't know squat as our negots committee?

But we are thinking ALPA will lead the way and bring these 5 guys to the holy land for us....... We have already lost with this negots committee, another turd, but this time it's going to be wrapped in ALPA propaganda.

We could have done so much better. I've accepted ALPA but the same monkeys continue to run this circus.

If we want unity, get guys at the table that know what they are talking about and don't have a history of trash deals and MOAs.

In the real union world - the negotiating committee needs unity to know it has the leverage to push for a good contract

In dysfunctional acpa land as described above, it is up to the negotiating committee to build unity

ALPA could not come soon enough

[CaptDukeNukem]

If no one is happy with what ALPA has brought at Jazz or WJ and we have the same monkeys running AC ALPA

Why are we voting in a new union that will be the same dogs breakfast they have proven everywhere else.

Lol

A regional carrier that has been demonized by acpa and have been de leveraged time & time again is a comparator to Delta/FedEx/United/Alaska ALPA!!

In the end, your contract is as good as the negotiation committee. Unions only supply the framework.

[a2btrail]

If no one is happy with what ALPA has brought at Jazz or WJ and we have the same monkeys running AC ALPA

Why are we voting in a new union that will be the same dogs breakfast they have proven everywhere else.

Lol

A regional carrier that has been demonized by acpa and have been de leveraged time & time again is a comparator to Delta/FedEx/United/Alaska ALPA!!

In the end, your contract is as good as the negotiation committee. Unions only supply the framework.

Exactly.