Ok…. So…… at least here in Victoria we have recently been introduced to a new procedure to which I personally am getting my panties in a bit of a twist over; ANY non flight planed flights leaving the airport surface MUST call a number in Vancouver to request a transponder code ahead of time. This is inclusive of everything from going out with a student to the practice area, or even doing a single circuit. Any attempt to get this code over VHF is met with “please CALL :1-888-9872-633.” I even heard a vicious rumor (may not be true) that someone on a flight itinerary was flying in from Tofino and when they attempted to enter the zone at Victoria to land was given the Nth degree about not calling in ahead of time on their cell…


I am curious to know:
If other airports have the same policies
What the legitimization of this policy is
What legal authority does Nav Can have to say I MUST use a telephone (IE If I refuse to and demand that they do it over VHF are they legally compelled to comply?)
Am I just being a prude and should I just bend over and be quiet about it….

And I thought it was only the Vancouver Terminal part of NavCanada on the west coast that were cupid stunts! i.e. every sunny weekend, a NOTAM will appear advising VFR traffic may be denied clearance into Class C airspace, or will be subject to delays! - and while all the planned flights over to CYYJ & CYCD get scrubbed, the good ole boys of ATC get to throw another shrimp on the barbie!

If the Xponder policy you described is actually now policy, then do we detect a reduction in staffing in sunny Surrey, or are the residents of Whalley nicking the wheels of the controllers cars!

Let the ranting continue.................

Ottawa has been like that for a few years. I don't know how they've handled un-flightplanned flights in the past - I don't fly around there too much anymore. When I do, it's either on a flight plan, or rarely enough that making the call is no nuscance.

Is this new since the past couple weeks? For the longest time now when flying out of CYNJ you are given a discreet transponder code by ground on initial contact.


...Oh and laticsdave, I know what you mean about requesting to enter class C at YVR on a saturday and recieve the response, "What? Not today! Use the reserve space."

That word debauchery. I don't think it means what you think it means.

In any case, having had to deal with YVR class C many years ago, when i flew in last summer i checked Notams in Williams Lake and found nothing so i headed in. By the time i got there and called up YVR TML, you guessed it, no answer.

I find this totally unacceptable. So off goes the mode C and you can bet i'm not crossing the water at 2500 feet.

Oh no, me take school long long time It was meant as a sarcastic joke; A pun, a quip, a gag, a witticism…..

My panties are in such a twist over the matter that it is becoming a sensual orgy of pleasure in my pants; IE the use of the statement “Debauchery” its ok though, most of my jokes are perhaps a tad far fetched

But anyway Kilo-Kilo, yes it is relatively new in vic, as for YNJ I have no idea, but if you guys can still get away with it (shakes fist.)… Id like to know what the story is at ZBB, YXX… basically they are farming out the work of getting a discreet code from ground/clearance to a call center somewhere… Probably India…. But the issue being that if you want to go fly circuits you must call the lady first,,,,
Maybe some ATC people can weigh in here as to “why” and more specifically when did the GSM cell phone replace the VHF radio as necessary equipment for operating in class C airspace… WHICH BTW doesn’t work exactly well; Example…..
One of my CPL students was going up today to do some short fields. Clearance had him shut down and go call; SO he flipped open his Fido Cell phone, Low and behold dialing the 1888 number IN Victoria, bumped him to a recording saying he has to call a local number. When trying to call the local 604 number from Victoria he got a (call could not be completed from your calling area) now granted my Telus phone works just dandy, but IMHO someone has really buggered this one up . (NOTE tried the same thing on another persons Fido phone today, same deal Fido wont let you use the number;

Next rant:
SO ALSO today, was going out to the practice area, called the number, the person seemed more than slightly confused over how the system was supposed to work; and all of a sudden when we are on climb out we are getting wako headings and altitudes from ATC regardless of what we said when we were taxing out; because the lady at the 1888 number entered we were going to do a touch and go in Victoria harbor (in a katana) , then go to Tofino for circuits then back to vic… Which for anyone from YYJ would perhaps know is a bit of a stretch from requesting to go to the local west practice area…

Perhaps I am just looking for something to complain over, but id like to know how the rest feel as to if this is pushing the boundary of reasonability….


NOW what I would also like to know VERRY much, If one demands to do it over VHF is there a legal responsibility for ATC to comply??? Not that I want to make life harder for ATC, they have saved my life before and I have the utmost respect for them, but this seems to me to be more of a Nav Canada business decision than ATC not wanting to type stuff up anymore…. \\\

-Thoughts comments questions?


Anyway Im going for a flight in an anphib Katana now….. later…..

NOW what I would also like to know VERRY much, If one demands to do it over VHF is there a legal responsibility for ATC to comply??? Not that I want to make life harder for ATC, they have saved my life before and I have the utmost respect for them, but this seems to me to be more of a Nav Canada business decision than ATC not wanting to type stuff up anymore…. \\\

I was told by one of the controllers at YNJ (who are excellent) that as far as flight plans go, if you request the Tower/Ground controller to open/close your flight plan, them they are obligated to do so, even if the ATIS/CFS/NOTAM says "call FSS". As to transponder codes, ????????. Try it, and don't take no for an answer. NavCanada are SUPPOSED to be providing a service.

I do alot of flights into YUL airspace, usually on itineraries, and once i didn't get a code, and I had asked over the radio, and the controller gave me one, didn't seem to have a problem with it. I guess it all depends on the controller and how nice he wants to be.

The same procedure was implimented in Montreal a few years back. No code, no flight and codes should be obtained via phone. YUL Center, is a little more flesible, in the sense that if one is traveling through YUL terminal, center may issue the code on the radio provided he/she has the time. Unfortunately, if your departure point is either in a CZ on underneath controlled airspace, the phone is your only resource.

At the end of the day, if we dont like this procedure, we can always bitch at NavCanada. Just write a complaint, after all we are all clients...

D

no big deal. Everyone flying an airplane shoud be familiar with the thrills and dangers of operating a telephone.
Personally, I like to call up Terminal with my Transponder code already in hand and the controller already aware of my intentions. Makes for a better flow.

Is this panties thing a weekend thing or a full time gig?

Ottawa is the same. You do not need a code if going on a Flight plan. They know your coming and already have one lined up for you. If your just going to bomb around in their airspace no flight plan you have to call the number. Just want to know when and where and how long you'll be flying. I guess it frees up the frequency a little more and the can identifiy right away. Haven't tried to get in without one yet so I'm not sure if they give you one and wave you through or if you are gonna bounce of the airspace back to where you came from.

Thankfully our training area is outside the TCA and so are we here.

It has been that way for several years out of YVR. All VFR flights have to call a # for a VFR code before radioing clearance.

Big deal.

calgary too. it's the norm.

Well If thats the way life is going to be fine; But then TC should make a cell requiered equipment......

it's the norm

Maybe in the People's Republic of Canada, but certainly not in the USA.

Up north here, our ATC takes pride in working slower. It's pretty complicated, having to generate and issue a code, certainly above the skill level of the average Canadian ATC.

Was on hold for 15 min the other day out of YYJ.. in the end said to hell with it and got a code through the tower, the same way that has worked so well for the past few years now. If we've got a charter and have to be a certain place at certain time, then they had better hire a hell of a lot more people at the call centre because right now it is not working at peak times... and this is only May. Just down the peninsula @YWH they seem to be able to generate codes just fine the old fashioned way.

To their credit at least ATC is letting you hang onto the same code for a few hours if you plan to be in and out of the area a number of times during the day.

I think you'll all find that the procedures differs from one controlled area to another. It all depends on the equipment the controllers are working with.

Slowly but surely a "stripless" system called EXCDS (Extended Computer Display System) is making its way to all control units.

The units that require you to phone in advance for a code, have this system. I don't see why you won't eventually be able to get your code via the internet, or perhaps be permanently assigned a code the way traffic aircraft and medivac helicopters are in Ontario. Maybe a flying club could get codes that last a week on their C172s. Whatever.

As I understand it, the problem for vfr stuff is that the codes need to be inserted into a large area wide computer system so an electronic (non paper) strip can be generated for your flight. In the past, individual unit accessed their own radar computer system, and used a code from a pre-determined bank of codes.

IFR flight are automatically entered the same old way. Instead of a pre printed strip, they now get an electronic strip in the system. The problem is how do you get the VFRs into that same system so controllers can handle and sequence everyone within the same computer system? The answer seems to be to have vfr aircraft "pre-code" (make that phone call) into the system.

I don't have EXCDS at my unit yet, so not completely familiar with the ins and outs, but it's coming. Hopefully the methods of obtaining a code for VFR aircraft will be made more efficient as time wears on.

Here's a thought...
Since calling a call centre for a squawk for VFR is pretty much the norm for almost anyplace with radar, why not call, file a plan and be done with it.
If you are training you are doing your students no favour by freeing them up from the hassle of filing. The odds are good that at some point in the future they will have to so sometime.

This is the norm in YOW. You call tell them you T/O time, routing and time of return. You do not need one to do circuts and they seem to be very good to a/c just transiting the zone to give them a code over the air.

It seems to make sence to me, then when you call clearance allz ya gotta say is clearance ABC squacking 1234 and they have all your info right there. Thus saving the air for IFR clearances.

But who knows maybe it's just big brother wanting to follow our every movment and track our "habits"!

clearance ABC squacking 1234

Why would you tell them what code you are squawking?

Holy Walker, if that's how pissed you get over a 2 min. phone call, I'd hate to hear your comments when you're told to hold short for a 3 min. wake turbulence delay.

Plain and simple, the old system you were able to jot things down on a small piece of paper in order to keep track of your flights. The new equipment uses keyboards, screens and computer programs. For a bunch of old guys to try and keep up opening windows and pigeon pecking in info and getting a code, its a pretty tall order. So to simplify things and make our job more Air Traffic Control and less typing, they created a free number to call from the club which I assume has a phone which doesn't run on a fido network and is available for flight plans already.

I guess you expect NC to come there in person and take your info, then call the number, file your flight plan and get your code, fuel and start your plane and hey while we're at it, why don't we wash your panties too?

justplanecrazy wrote:Holy Walker, if that's how pissed you get over a 2 min. phone call, I'd hate to hear your comments when you're told to hold short for a 3 min. wake turbulence delay?

Well, if it's not a heavy, they'd be able to waive the wake turbulance delay of course.

But seriously, if you are in the flying end of this business, there's no way to know what Nav Canada is doing equipment wise. All the pilots know is that the rules have changed for some reason that's not clear to them, it's somewhat more inconvienient, and the level of service hasn't changed for the better because of it.

Probably a legitimate question from pilots.

True its a legitimate question and if you don't know than ask. Walker on the other hand didn't ask he just went off on some crazy rant and thus the smart ass answer.

In my opinion the level of service has changed. The controllers have more time to look out the window rather then staring at a computer screen trying to figure out how to enter in the information. If you'd prefer a controller look at a computer screen rather than the radar or out the window then do as some morons are suggesting and try and force your way into a control zone without a code. But do you really want the controller to divert his attention from keeping you seperated from the 10 other planes in your way while he types in your beta and gives you a code. Just as a side note, the new equipment cuts down over 80% of the co-ordinating that was done between terminals and towers on hotlines, so all in all it lets us do our jobs with a lot more ease.

As well, numerous illegitimate requests will screw over the float plane or bush pilots with legitimate requests who may be returning from a location where they never had access to a phone.

I can't believe there are instructors out there that have the attitude that if I'm not legally compelled to do something then screw ATC I'm not doing it. That's the most assinine thing that I've heard coming from someone who's supposed to be teaching students about safety. How about instead of bitching about clearance delivery not giving the student a code, how about you explain to the student the importance of preplanning. If he had actually thought about what he needed to do before jumping in the plane he wouldn't have had a problem.

Ok, so here is my Victoria-transponder code story. I think that although they may have good reason for requireing this (see above), I still beleive they are pretty screwed up.

So here is the notam:

CYYJ WEF 0604130901 AMEND CFS: PRO: ATS REQUIREMENTS:
SHOULD READ: ALL VFR ACFT DEPARTING WITHIN VICTORIA TOWER CLASS C
AIRSPACE WHO ARE NOT ON A FLIGHT PLAN OR FLIGHT ITINERARY FILED
WITH AN ATS UNIT ARE REQUIRED TO CALL VANCOUVER ACC AT
888-987-2633 (888-YVR-CODE) OR 604-586-4595 FOR TRANSPONDER
CODE ASSIGNMENT AT LEAST 30 MIN PRIOR TO FLIGHT

...as we all know. So I am filed Courtenay to Pat Bay, 30 minute delay then Sechelt. On the way, Nanaimo gives me my code to get in to Victoria. So far so good. Land on at Pat Bay, call tower on the water, with a "talk to you in a bit". So as far as I know I am still on a flight plan, so I do not call for a code.

Start up 20 minutes later, call Clearance delivery, "ready to continue on my VFR flight plan" They ask me why I did not call for a transponder code. I remind them that I am on a VFR flight plan, and according to their NOTAM I should not have to call for one. Buddy tells me that I should have told them I was continueing on. So much for the highly automated computerized system.

To be fair, they did give me a code, and I was on my way in fairly short order. But be warned: a flight plan with a stop in CYYJ will not nessecarily get you through without calling for this code.

Walker wrote:
I am curious to know:
...
What the legitimization of this policy is
...
Am I just being a prude and should I just bend over and be quiet about it….

justplanecrazy wrote:True its a legitimate question and if you don't know than ask. Walker on the other hand didn't ask he just went off on some crazy rant and thus the smart ass answer.

My dearest of Friend; I do suggest you read a bit more clearly before “going off on some crazy rant…” The explanation of freeing up ATC time to be spent looking out the “window” per say IE radar had not been suggested to me; however my question still stands as I personally feel there is more politics behind the curtain here than the general public is being told… IE something involving money and staffing….

As for the question of its legality I did issue a rider to that stating it is not my intention to give ATC a hard time, I was just curious to know what the law reads as there are in-fact times when a phone is not available to people… Specifically on the west coast; and if this issue is further complicated by a semi operational phone network (of which today I was told they want 15-30 min advanced notice) I would like to know what everyone’s rights are… The fine people who answer our calls on the radio and on the phone I suspect have very little to do with policy changes of this magnitude; however irregardless if they are responsible or not WE the tax paying citizens of this country do have to deal with the system…
If you wish to bash me for asking a question please feel free, but I would ask that before doing so you at least spend the time to fully read my posts…

NOTE: I agree this is not so much of an issue for most students, the big issue that I am having with it from an operations point of view is scenic tours… For those of you not familiar with Victoria, the ferry from Vancouver dumps people about a 2 min drive from YYJ, on the side of the highway before the airport is one of those tourist “things to do here” government/chamber of commerce buildings. We get people coming off the ferry, chatting with the nice ladies at the Tourist information center, then driving straight on down the road to the office where (in a perfectly working world) we can send them up for a trip over the gulf islands for 1.3 etc… but a 30 min delay on the ground COULD prove to be an issue at the end of the day…


I am a Capitalist at heart, except for too things… Healthcare, and ATC; If they need to higher more people in the tower then so be it, I just don’t think its such a hot idea to be farming things out to call centers…

PS JustPlaneCrazy, you can wash my panties any time