Circling Procedures

[yhz41]

Funny thing about Pang, if you follow the published missed you'll bump into something. Those minimums are connected to the approach you are doing, not the runway.

[digits_]

Funny thing about Pang, if you follow the published missed you'll bump into something. Those minimums are connected to the approach you are doing, not the runway.

How would you bump into something? What would you hit?

[wordstwice]

The circling minimums have nothing to do with what runway you're landing on, they are for what approach you are doing. IF you do the RNAV, use the circling minimums on that plate, if you're doing the NDB, use those minimums.

Never try and take the good from one plate and use it for another and vice versa

[digits_]

Hey guys, I'm just studying for the INRAT and I have a few questions that no amount of ctrl-F seems to help me with. Yes, even tried ChatGPT, it produces an answer, but always fails the citation of it's source. Or gives you some transport canada webpage that 404s. The most advanced technology is still retarded, who would have thought lol.

Question:

Circling minima: Which do you use? Say I'm at CYXP on RNAV (GNSS) C (TRUE), coming in on RWY 24. Go missed. And for whatever reason (lets say winds), RWY 06 is now favorable. Looking at Circling Minima on RNAV (GNSS) C (TRUE) for RWY 24 is 2000. However that's for RWY 24. I'm now trying to land RWY 06 and Circling Minima as according to NDB A (TRUE) is 2820.

An 820 foot difference.... So which circling minima would I use to land at RWY 06? Whenever I go over it in my head I think this. The circling restriction says dont go on the south side, however the circling minima for 06 is 2820, and the missed approach procedure is ON THE SOUTH SIDE. So if my airspace is protected anyway, why can I not climb to 2820, and circle to 06? But that would require me using the circling minima from a DIFFERENT approach?

Go easy on me. I'm new to this. I've attached a screenshot of the charts so you can see what I'm talking about.

If you fly the RNAV you use 2000 as minimum. You can only manoeuver/circle to the north side once you are visual.
If you the NDB you use 2820 as minimum. You can manouever/circle any way you like once visual.

In both scenarios you can land on either runway. If you fly the missed approach, you have to follow the missed approach of the approach you were originally flying. When initiating a missed approach of the NDB, you'll be at least 820 ft higher, which can explain why a missed approach over the south is possible.

[yhz41]

Funny thing about Pang, if you follow the published missed you'll bump into something. Those minimums are connected to the approach you are doing, not the runway.

How would you bump into something? What would you hit?

I suppose I should've clarified. You won't if you're at mins but if you had to go missed below for whatever reason (windshear, bear on the runway) that turn will put you right into the granite.

[digits_]

Is the approach not lining you up for the rwy? If for example, when there's ONLY circling minima, that is to get you within visual range of the runway only.

The title of the approach is 'RNAV C', not 'RNAV 24'

The final approach course is 204T. That's approx 36 degree offset of runway centerline.

A circling approach brings you close to the airport, it doesn't line you up with a runway.

But you're flying the RNAV which would lead you to RWY 24, but due to windshear RWY 06 is now the best. I should use the circling minima from the just missed approach on the RNAV? And not the upcoming NDB approach of 2820?

For circling approaches like these, often the direction where you approach from would determine which approach you would fly, not the runway for landing.

If you were approaching from the north/east, you'd likely fly the RNAV C and land on 24 or 06 depending on the surface wind. A tailwind on the approach would not really be a big deal. Up to a certain point of course.

If you were approaching from the W you would like fly the NDB approach (unless you hate NDB approaches) and again circle to land on 06 or 24 depending on the surface wind.

Some people might always prefer an RNAV over an NDB approach. Either way, in this situation, you're flying a circling approach in either case. So the runway of landing can be either one.

In this instance there are lower minima on the RNAV than the NDB by 820 feet. So if I went missed and circled at 2000, wouldn't that conflict with obstacle clearance?

No. Approaches are defined to keep you out of obstacles. If you follow the information on the plate, you'll be protected.

Am I to just use one approach plate in my decision making?

You can use anything you want for your decision making to decide which approach you'd like to do, but once you are starting an approach, you only use the info on that approach chart.

[digits_]

You can use anything you want for your decision making to decide which approach you'd like to do, but once you are starting an approach, you only use the info on that approach chart.

Including the circling minima? Sorry to seem like I'm repeating myself? I really want to clarify here. I just spent hours trying to find where it explicitly states this information, only to have it answered in under a half hour after I asked a forum. lol.

Absolutely, yes. Once you've selected an approach, the approach info on the chart, including the circling minima, is the only information that exists.

Don't look at minima on chart A when flying approach B. That might kill you.

[photofly]

So if I went missed and circled at 2000, wouldn't that conflict with obstacle clearance?

There may be a misconception which is revealed by your language.

You don’t go missed and then circle. Circling is commenced only when you can see the runway and you are then more or less committing to completing the approach visually. Going missed after commencing a circling procedure because you lost visibility can be hazardous and you are not guaranteed terrain clearance.

If you’re not visual at minimums you stay at the MDA and commence the missed procedure at the MAWP. No circling.

[digits_]

Absolutely, yes. Once you've selected an approach, the approach info on the chart, including the circling minima, is the only information that exists.

Don't look at minima on chart A when flying approach B. That might kill you.

Ok thank you. That was really helpful. It was right in front of me this whole time. I'm flying the approach, not the runway. So if you fly the approach, the minima apply to it. My confusion stemmed from thinking the runway and approach were the same, and that a circling approach to a different runway required me to change approaches.

If an approach brings you to a specific runway, it will be in its name/title, eg RNAV Z RWY 24.
But even on those approaches you might see 'circling minima'. In that case you can fly RNAV Z RWY 24, and then circle for any other runway on the airport.

(To avoid any confusion: note that ATC will have to clear you to circle on an approach like that if you do that in controlled airspace.)

[photofly]

You’re making it too complicated.

Fly approach, descend. If, before minimums, you get visual reference then continue the descent as low as you like at your choice (you can see the airport/runway) as you carry out a suggested circling manoeuvre or one you invent of your own. Don’t hit anything. Clearance for the approach already includes permission to manoeuvre visually to land.

If you don’t get visual reference you can’t descend below minimums. At the MAWP carry out the charted missed approach procedure.

RNAV GNSS C doesn’t have any “straight in” options, otherwise it would be RNAV GNSS RWY 25. Every approach ends with either a missed approach or a circling procedure.

Flying a missed approach once you have descended below minimums (which you can only do with visual references sufficient to land) no longer guarantees terrain clearance.

[digits_]

• 1. Approach RNAV GNSS C

• 2. When visual, request ATC a visual approach, if I'm not straight-in (I have performance windshear causing me to switch runways) then I can circle, using whatever patterns I choose (AIM RAC 9.24, Figure 9.12) which mimic a VFR circuit, for whatever runway I choose, so long as the minima are from the same chart AS THE CURRENT APPROACH PLATE.

• 3. If I go missed in this case, I follow the guide as laid out in the IPM. (but what about point number 2? just avoid the circling restriction?)

Does this mean anytime I have the visual I can circle however I want as long as the visual approach is approved and all I have to do is avoid the circling restrictions?

2 is partially wrong. If you're cleared for a circling approach, you are automatically cleared to visually manoeuver in the protected area, and you're also automatically cleared for a missed approach if you need it. You don't need to request anything once you're visual.

Every approach clearance means you are cleared for its missed approach if you need it.

The protected area looks like this:



If you go missed during a circling procedure, you have to stay within that protected area to be protected until you are on your missed approach track. Generally that means flying towards the center of the airport. In reality, it can become quite awkward. The good news is that it's highly unlikely you'll go missed during the visual circling part of a circling approach. If the weather is bad, you'll go missed before you commence the circling.

[digits_]

So on ILS Y RWY 32L, ILS is down (russians hacked it). I can circle to 14R. As long as I have the visual, as long as ATC approved the circling procedure. And I probably wouldn't go missed (unless theres a bear on the runway or something) because a circling procedure is a visual maneuver anyway.

Hmm not quite. It's the opposite. If the approach for ILS 14R is down, you could fly the ILS RWY 32 L and circle for runway 14R.

You can request it with ATC, and they would clear you something like 'cleared for the ILS Y RWY 32L circle to land 14R'.

[digits_]

You decide at the start if your approach if you are going straight in or if you will circle.

Then at minimum you either proceed with your preselected plan, or you go missed approach.

Note that straight in minima are almost always lower than circling minima. If the weather is too bad to land straight ahead, you likely won't want to circle in it.

[digits_]

Fly approach, descend. If, before minimums, you get visual reference then continue the descent as low as you like at your choice

That's incorrect. You're supposed to stay at the MDA until landing is assured.
You'll likely fail a PPC ride if you fly your downwind leg level at 500 AGL for example if MDA is 700 AGL.

[digits_]

You decide at the start if your approach if you are going straight in or if you will circle.

Then at minimum you either proceed with your preselected plan, or you go missed approach.

Note that straight in minima are almost always lower than circling minima. If the weather is too bad to land straight ahead, you likely won't want to circle in it.

So then in my preselection, I may choose circling because ATIS says another runway is favorable.

Yes (assuming ATC clears you for it).

[NotDirty!]

To add further confusion to your initial post, YXP is an uncontrolled airport in uncontrolled airspace… you won’t be cleared for an approach, but rather “cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of YXP. Report leaving [vertically or horizontally depending on the scenario] controlled airspace”… so you have to broadcast your intentions on 126.7 and inform the CARS of your intended approach and report the various points throughout the procedure. Uncontrolled IFR is simpler in some ways, but more complicated in most ways compared to controlled IFR.

Naming convention of IFR approaches in Canada are to include the runway number if straight in minima are provided, and if more than one approach of the same type is offered to the same runway, a letter starting at Z and progressing through the alphabet in reverse is appended to the procedure name.
A procedure that only offers circling minima will NOT include a runway name, and will include a letter, starting with A, and progressing alphabetically, regardless of the type of procedure. For example, you may have NDB A, LOC B, RNAV C, etc for the same airport, but RNAV Z 24, RNAV W 24, ILS Z 24, and ILS Y 24.

[NotDirty!]

You decide at the start if your approach if you are going straight in or if you will circle.

Then at minimum you either proceed with your preselected plan, or you go missed approach.

Note that straight in minima are almost always lower than circling minima. If the weather is too bad to land straight ahead, you likely won't want to circle in it.

So then in my preselection, I may choose circling because ATIS says another runway is favorable.

Yes (assuming ATC clears you for it).

Circling approaches are becoming less common, as more airports have RNAV procedures to all runways… however, they still may be used strategically… on many occasions, coming in from the west, I have chosen to fly the RNAV 10, circling for 28, rather than flying an extra 20+ miles to fly the RNAV 28. Sometimes traffic flow won’t allow this, so I wouldn’t bother trying it going into YYZ!
Controlled airports will usually specify the approach(es) in use, and while ATC may authorize an alternative procedure, or a different runway, they will often want a good reason for deviating from their flow (training is a reasonable explanation, but be prepared for delays to allow it).
As I mentioned above, there are many places where there is no ATC, so you get to decide what an appropriate procedure is (taking other traffic into account, etc.). There are lots of airports without ATIS!

[NotDirty!]

So then in my preselection, I may choose circling because ATIS says another runway is favorable.

Yes (assuming ATC clears you for it).

You're going to hate me for yet another question haha. Sorry.

Then say I have to go missed ON THAT CIRCLING PROCEDURE. I would follow the MAP for the original approach.

Example:

"Inbound for RNAV GNSS RWY 14L circling 32R"
"Approved circling 32R"
* visibility shits the bed in that cnut hair of a second
*Going Missed. I do this MAP Screenshot_20230411_182109_Samsung Internet.jpg
* Proceed to alternate.

If you haven’t already begun the circling manoeuvre, it is simple to just follow the published missed. I might note you don’t have to proceed to your alternate right away, you might decide to try the RNAV 32R that gets you to lower minima than the circling minima on the 14L approach.
If you have already begun circling, you are responsible for terrain clearance as you complete the go around. The IPM procedure is a suggestion, and depending on where you are at the time, you may be better off flying what is essentially the missed approach procedure for a different runway.

[dialdriver]

Yes (assuming ATC clears you for it).

You're going to hate me for yet another question haha. Sorry.

Then say I have to go missed ON THAT CIRCLING PROCEDURE. I would follow the MAP for the original approach.

Example:

"Inbound for RNAV GNSS RWY 14L circling 32R"
"Approved circling 32R"
* visibility shits the bed in that cnut hair of a second
*Going Missed. I do this MAP Screenshot_20230411_182109_Samsung Internet.jpg
* Proceed to alternate.

If you haven’t already begun the circling manoeuvre, it is simple to just follow the published missed. I might note you don’t have to proceed to your alternate right away, you might decide to try the RNAV 32R that gets you to lower minima than the circling minima on the 14L approach.
If you have already begun circling, you are responsible for terrain clearance as you complete the go around. The IPM procedure is a suggestion, and depending on where you are at the time, you may be better off flying what is essentially the missed approach procedure for a different runway.

You should climb towards the middle of the field and then fly the missed approach for the approach just flown. You will not have time to review the other missed approaches, but should have reviewed the one for the approach just flown, in your initial approach review before descent.

See RAC 9.25.

[NotDirty!]

Yes… I believe RAC 9.25 is exactly what is written in the IPM quote above. It is a recommendation! It is not the only method to assure terrain clearance. Flying the reciprocal of the inbound procedure may be an option, that also provides terrain clearance, and may be preferable if your circling procedure has resulted in a course reversal that makes flying the published missed a much more complicated procedure!