58 unbid YYZ EMJ CA positions (most junior EMJ CA hired Feb 2006)
152 unbid YYZ 320 FO positions
Most junior YYZ 320 CA hired Nov 2000
Lots of 777, 340, 767 RP vacancies in YYZ.
Some 340 and 767 RP vacancies in YVR.
Air Canada bid is out
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
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Lost in Saigon
- Rank 8
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If you are on flat salary and are awarded the EMJ as a Captain after say 3 months with the airline are you still making $37K a yr or do you get some type of Capt premium??? If im not mistaken didnt CRJ direct entry Capts in the past get some uplift.
Just an average man doing heroes work
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Trippin @350
- Rank 1
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Our Collective Agreement reads that if upgraded to Captain you will not maintain the salary freeze. Keep in mind that I am not a lawyer so this BOOK that we call our agreement is tough enough for me to understand at the best of times.
If the company and union got together on some issues you'll see direct entry what ever the @#$! you want.
If the company and union got together on some issues you'll see direct entry what ever the @#$! you want.
I doubt they'll have 2000 hour captains on EMJs... I mean, my airline needs 4000 TT for captain due to insurance reasons alone! I figure it must be the same with AC. I mean, our smallest aircraft is the 320, but the EMJs are worth a penny or two as well, so I figure that the insurance must be similar.
Regards,
DNB
Regards,
DNB
I think if you can hold the left seat then you are awarded it. I've never heard of any insurance requirements. (although its possible that its just never come up, maybe someone else on here knows for sure?) One would hope that the hiring committee forsaw this possibility and hired accordingly. When they were hiring DEC on the RJ were there any special requirments or was it just first come first served? Sounds like interesting times ahead indeed!!!
Theres a couple of people I know AC just hired and if they went direct entry captain, I'd be taking the bus! Or at the very least, be very afraid to fly.
??
I don't understand why you would state that. You are not familiar with the upgrade process at AC. It is quite extensive and there is a tonne of support to help any pilot. 1 passenger or 250 passengers all are important and if you are going to afraid to fly I would concentrate of the maintance the go/go corporate culture as well as the flight crew qualifications.
I can say with certainty that any captain at AC has been thoroughly checked, checked and rechecked
Cheers
??
I don't understand why you would state that. You are not familiar with the upgrade process at AC. It is quite extensive and there is a tonne of support to help any pilot. 1 passenger or 250 passengers all are important and if you are going to afraid to fly I would concentrate of the maintance the go/go corporate culture as well as the flight crew qualifications.
I can say with certainty that any captain at AC has been thoroughly checked, checked and rechecked
Cheers
Although I am certainly not knowledgeable on Air Canada flight operations but, as an occasional fare paying customer, I am willing to assume Air Canada would not have front end individuals on any aircraft type if they(Air Canada) didn’t have confidence in that person’s ability to meet operational requirements. I bet Air Canada, WestJet, CanJet et al would park aircraft rather than have questionable flight crew performance…………… 
I was upgraded to Capt this year, here is the process for a "new" Captain with AC.
1) Intro to Command Ground school.
Four days of indoctrination with your new responsibilites. Speak with Dispatch, Flight Ops lawyer, VP of Flight Ops, Emergency Services, Ramp Services, Maintenance Control, Medi-Link, as well as a full IFR review. Before this course there is a pre-work package that is a few hundred questions on Flight Operations, CARS, and all aspects of aviation law.
The course is outstanding, and everyone in attendence walks away better for it regardless of their background. This is something that is not a Transport Canada requirement but extra money in training that AC invests into its pilots.
2) Full aircraft groundschool.
3) Full simulator course using the Advanced Qualification Program method of training. Once the traditional "ppc" is done two more loft sessions with a Line Oriented Evaluation afterwards must be passed to progress to line indoctrination.
4) A minimum of fifty hours to as many as one hundred hours of line indoctrination in the left seat.
5) A command evaluation (once recommened) by a Line Indoc Captain.
6) If the above line check is passed then the dreaded command sims. These are the toughest sim sessions one normally will see in their career. I will not on a public forum discuss what is shown however multiple system failures, and being boxed into situations where a loss of life is a very real threat are flown. It makes a PPC seem like circuits in comparision. Failure here can lead to months of retraining, and two failures have had loss of careers, or permanent first officer status for the balance of their career. (On probation two failures could cause termination.) Again this isn't a Transport Requirement but something that AC spends additional training funds on to ensure their Captains are well prepared to face any situation on the line. It is something you dread going into, and are appreciative to have seen when you are done.
7) Once the command sims are done then there is a command line check. A minimum of six legs into more challenging airports are flown. If all goes well you get the fourth stripe, a new hat and a big raise.
Anyone who makes it through the above didn't fluke out. It is a hell of a lot of hard work with many, many evaluations (9) along the way for red flags to be raised. You truly earn your Captain's status at AC. I never worry about who is at the controls on our aircraft.
1) Intro to Command Ground school.
Four days of indoctrination with your new responsibilites. Speak with Dispatch, Flight Ops lawyer, VP of Flight Ops, Emergency Services, Ramp Services, Maintenance Control, Medi-Link, as well as a full IFR review. Before this course there is a pre-work package that is a few hundred questions on Flight Operations, CARS, and all aspects of aviation law.
The course is outstanding, and everyone in attendence walks away better for it regardless of their background. This is something that is not a Transport Canada requirement but extra money in training that AC invests into its pilots.
2) Full aircraft groundschool.
3) Full simulator course using the Advanced Qualification Program method of training. Once the traditional "ppc" is done two more loft sessions with a Line Oriented Evaluation afterwards must be passed to progress to line indoctrination.
4) A minimum of fifty hours to as many as one hundred hours of line indoctrination in the left seat.
5) A command evaluation (once recommened) by a Line Indoc Captain.
6) If the above line check is passed then the dreaded command sims. These are the toughest sim sessions one normally will see in their career. I will not on a public forum discuss what is shown however multiple system failures, and being boxed into situations where a loss of life is a very real threat are flown. It makes a PPC seem like circuits in comparision. Failure here can lead to months of retraining, and two failures have had loss of careers, or permanent first officer status for the balance of their career. (On probation two failures could cause termination.) Again this isn't a Transport Requirement but something that AC spends additional training funds on to ensure their Captains are well prepared to face any situation on the line. It is something you dread going into, and are appreciative to have seen when you are done.
7) Once the command sims are done then there is a command line check. A minimum of six legs into more challenging airports are flown. If all goes well you get the fourth stripe, a new hat and a big raise.
Anyone who makes it through the above didn't fluke out. It is a hell of a lot of hard work with many, many evaluations (9) along the way for red flags to be raised. You truly earn your Captain's status at AC. I never worry about who is at the controls on our aircraft.
You learn more from your mistakes than your successes. F**k enough things up and you'll die a genius.
Hey Bede,
In WW2 the RCAF sent pilots in with under 100 hours to fly over Germany in bombers and fighters. Can a 2000 hour pilot who chooses to bid the left seat make it at AC? Absolutely. Is it the best option for them or the airline? May be, may be not.
The command process isn't about hands and feet skills. It is about flight management skills, decision making, being able to say NO to the company and stranding passengers instead of flying when it is the only safe choice, and it is all about good CRM as a leader of a crew. V1 engine cuts are important, but it is about 1% of the required workload going in. Having a lot of experience first and seeing many different situations in the right seat makes it an easier transition, but it is not an absolute requirement. Look at airlines in Europe and you will see much lower time canidates earning their Captains bars than many bush operators in Canada. We are truly spoiled in this country with a surplus of higher time pilots than most countries.
In WW2 the RCAF sent pilots in with under 100 hours to fly over Germany in bombers and fighters. Can a 2000 hour pilot who chooses to bid the left seat make it at AC? Absolutely. Is it the best option for them or the airline? May be, may be not.
The command process isn't about hands and feet skills. It is about flight management skills, decision making, being able to say NO to the company and stranding passengers instead of flying when it is the only safe choice, and it is all about good CRM as a leader of a crew. V1 engine cuts are important, but it is about 1% of the required workload going in. Having a lot of experience first and seeing many different situations in the right seat makes it an easier transition, but it is not an absolute requirement. Look at airlines in Europe and you will see much lower time canidates earning their Captains bars than many bush operators in Canada. We are truly spoiled in this country with a surplus of higher time pilots than most countries.
You learn more from your mistakes than your successes. F**k enough things up and you'll die a genius.
Possible. Sure.Bede wrote:Long Keel,
Excellent info. Would it be even possible then for a low time pilot to pass this extensive process?
Without exposure to the airline, it would be tough. As a probationary pilot, you don't have much recourse if you fail at some point.
Failing is that much more risky and the likelihood much higher if you don't fully comprehend what is being asked of you, and what is required to get through. With some knowledge of the airline, AC methods, etc, you would have much more confidence and focus on the goal you need to achieve.
If you are good at studying you have a shot. If you are above average organizationally coming into the process cold, you might get through.
If you are one of the handful that have bid to the left seat as a new hire, you need to get educated in a hurry about the process, and the standard you need to achieve. That information is all documented, including the training and checking standards. A solid 2-3 months intensive reading prior to course would off load much of the worry about depth of knowledge issues, and you can concentrate on the other aspects.
You need to know the FOM inside and out. You need to know the AIM, and type AOM inside and out too. Don't for get the RBN and MEL info, preamble, etc, chart layout... You can be asked about anything. Understanding the basics of the Contract is also part of that, because as Commander, you are in the lead, and a less experienced FO (to AC) than you will be looking to you.
It was gruelling in the past, and it has had some layers added since Freddie, etc. The Command Course is a good prep from what I hear. The type course and left seat ride, make you a Captain in TC eyes, but that is only the beginning from an AC point of view. AC figures, ok, now you can sit in the Left Seat, but you have to jump through their hoops to be able to wear the epaulettes. That is when it gets tougher, as you will be checked by numerous company check pilots.
The main issues are that people heap stress upon themselves. Taken for each step, none is that tough, but you do have to maintain a peak for a long time. Don't look at the whole project, just work on each process as it comes up. You have to be in the books all the time, keeping current.
From a refresher point of view, reading a chapter of the FOM per week, or per weekly flight isn't a bad plan (for anyone).
Thanks for all the info guys. Sounds like a very good system to ensure things are done in a safe and efficent manner. Is the overall system (dispatch, maintence, ops etc) similar to the one at Jazz? I would guess that since they are under the same umbrella, they would at least have a similar ideaology. Maybe someone who has worked at both can comment? Do you think that would make the transition for a DEC (assuming they decide to go that route again) a little easier at AC?
Question for the Air Canada chaps. Is it possible for any individual to elect to remain FO thorought their entire career if that person chooses to do so? As an example if a person took a look at the requirements/skill level necessary to complete that command course and said, well......... I got about 15 yrs remaining, not sure I can hack it so I want to remain in my FO 767, A340 or whatever as a FO. Would that individual be looked down on by his peers, would company mgt make it difficult for that person, putting aside the loss of salary, pension benefits that would result in such a decision.
Just curious
Just curious
Yes nobody can force you to be a Captain. There have been career first officers in the past. It is a union shop so there is little the company can do so long as the pilot flys the required standard throughout his career. As far as how his peers view him, the seat has little to do with it. It is more a question of character. We have had guys with dual careers, (financial planners, doctors, developers, hockey coaches, etc) that choose to stay senior as a F/O for lifestyle reasons. Who am I to say they must be a Captain? I would say AC retires about 5 career F/O's for every 100 Captains though. It is rare.55+ wrote:Question for the Air Canada chaps. Is it possible for any individual to elect to remain FO thorought their entire career if that person chooses to do so? As an example if a person took a look at the requirements/skill level necessary to complete that command course and said, well......... I got about 15 yrs remaining, not sure I can hack it so I want to remain in my FO 767, A340 or whatever as a FO. Would that individual be looked down on by his peers, would company mgt make it difficult for that person, putting aside the loss of salary, pension benefits that would result in such a decision.
Just curious
You learn more from your mistakes than your successes. F**k enough things up and you'll die a genius.
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Lost in Saigon
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:35 pm
I predict there will be more career FO's in the future because of the many pilots who are joining AC in their late 30's or early 40's.
It is not expected that they will retire as widebody Capains, so many will choose senior widebody FO over A320 Captain.
Top pay for 777 FO is about $150K while top pay for 320 CA is about $165K. After taxes it's maybe $600 per month.
On this latest bid there are 87 777 FO positions. 12 of them were Captains who are willing to take a 4 year downbid freeze in order to have some lifestyle.
It is not expected that they will retire as widebody Capains, so many will choose senior widebody FO over A320 Captain.
Top pay for 777 FO is about $150K while top pay for 320 CA is about $165K. After taxes it's maybe $600 per month.
On this latest bid there are 87 777 FO positions. 12 of them were Captains who are willing to take a 4 year downbid freeze in order to have some lifestyle.
You may be more up to date of pay scales than me, but is the pay difference that much with overseas and nav?Lost in Saigon wrote:I predict there will be more career FO's in the future because of the many pilots who are joining AC in their late 30's or early 40's.
It is not expected that they will retire as widebody Capains, so many will choose senior widebody FO over A320 Captain.
Top pay for 777 FO is about $150K while top pay for 320 CA is about $165K. After taxes it's maybe $600 per month.
On this latest bid there are 87 777 FO positions. 12 of them were Captains who are willing to take a 4 year downbid freeze in order to have some lifestyle.
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Lost in Saigon
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:35 pm
same umbrella, they would at least have a similar ideaology. Maybe someone who has worked at both can comment? Do you think that would make the transition for a DEC (assuming they decide to go that route again) a little easier at AC?
NOVA---- was very, very good. AC has way more hoops to jump through.
NOVA---- was very, very good. AC has way more hoops to jump through.
Sounds like Jazz is starting to go down the same road for upgrades, although certainly not to the extent that Air Canada does. Personally I like the idea of extra training for captains. As was mentioned earlier, there is alot more to being a captain than just passsing the ride.
