Wide body with no former jet-time

[flying4dollars]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

[Canadaflyer46]

If new hire classes are being filled with experienced pilots with all this 705 and heavy time, then flat pay is surely destined to stay? The company won’t want to increase the rates so long as they’re filling classes. I suppose we’ll see how much bargaining capital guys are willing to use on it at the negotiating table next year.

[Loading...]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

Yes good point, 1 year flat pay, or probational pay, would be a much better idea. I noticed some airlines down south do this too.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Yeah I agree that flat pay is no issue.
I actually support flatpay, however not at the current pay being offered. We should start 100, 105, 110, 115. Then on to formula.

You do?! THIS mentality needs to stop. It is not helpful to our cause. Why does it need to be 4 years? What nation's flag carrier has this? I can understand a 1 year flat pay while on probation at no less than $100k and after that, formula. Nobody should be ok with 4 year flat pay. Get that out of your system my friend!

Yes good point, 1 year flat pay, or probational pay, would be a much better idea. I noticed some airlines down south do this too.

but.. Why?

Canadian aviation at it's finest, never striving for better..

[co-joe]

I heard that unless you have former jet experience, you cant be considered for a WB position on initial hire. Just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this rumour is true?
This would seem abit silly, certaintly for those coming from Jazz.

It's not that learning a WB is more difficult than learning a NB. I'm sure any Dash pilot can make it through the initial course, and work their way through indoc. The issue with going WB is going to be staying current. Juniority, and the number of sectors a month you do means you'll have to put in extra work to maintain proficiency. If you aren't self motivated, and you don't have decent jet experience to fall back on, staying on top of things once you get on line and do 4 landings a month on line, will be difficult.

[tailgunner]

Flatpay rates need to double.
The problem is the lottery system of new hire equipment assignments. If one class has all RP positions, and the following class has all 777 FO positions, who makes more money if flatpay is eliminated? Year 2 formula pay greatly benefits the junior class of 777FO to the tune of perhaps tens of thousands of dollars. This needs to be thought about and addressed with any new pay system. What is fair?
I’m not advocating for a continuation of the 4 year flat pay system, but there needs to be a rational way to ensure that new hires are all compensated equally with each other. Otherwise, we have created a new rift between the new hire winners and losers depending on what they assign you.

[newcomer]

Flatpay rates need to double.
The problem is the lottery system of new hire equipment assignments. If one class has all RP positions, and the following class has all 777 FO positions, who makes more money if flatpay is eliminated? Year 2 formula pay greatly benefits the junior class of 777FO to the tune of perhaps tens of thousands of dollars. This needs to be thought about and addressed with any new pay system. What is fair?
I’m not advocating for a continuation of the 4 year flat pay system, but there needs to be a rational way to ensure that new hires are all compensated equally with each other. Otherwise, we have created a new rift between the new hire winners and losers depending on what they assign you.

This problem is created by the RP position, you should get rid of it. At most airlines, the 3rd and 4th pilot are FOs/Capts. All new hires should be FOs. Problem solved.

[BTD]

I heard that unless you have former jet experience, you cant be considered for a WB position on initial hire. Just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this rumour is true?
This would seem abit silly, certaintly for those coming from Jazz.

It's not that learning a WB is more difficult than learning a NB. I'm sure any Dash pilot can make it through the initial course, and work their way through indoc. The issue with going WB is going to be staying current. Juniority, and the number of sectors a month you do means you'll have to put in extra work to maintain proficiency. If you aren't self motivated, and you don't have decent jet experience to fall back on, staying on top of things once you get on line and do 4 landings a month on line, will be difficult.

The biggest factor is when the skipper goes on break, you might end up with 2 brand new guys holding down the fort. There is nothing wrong with being new, everybody is or was at one point. But it’s better if one or both of those guys have experience in that environment. On the NB, the longest a new hire is left alone is when the Capt has had that greasy burrito.

We need to make those right seat WB jobs attractive enough so that the guy with 3 or 4 years at the company wants to take them, and not sit as an RP. Easiest solution. Turf flat pay.

[Aimhii]

Better Yet...>Abolish the RP Position and make all Fully Licensed as they do in the US.

ALSO:

Flat pay would like like this:

1 - Need ALPA Nationwide for - Anyone Hired in Any Airline with CPL and 1000hrs starts at $50K at any air carrier.

2 - Anyone Hired at any 705 Carrier with ATPL and 5000hrs min pay $100k and for every 5000hrs above that, another $20k.

[pelmet]

I heard that unless you have former jet experience, you cant be considered for a WB position on initial hire. Just wondering if anybody knows whether or not this rumour is true?
This would seem abit silly, certaintly for those coming from Jazz.

It's not that learning a WB is more difficult than learning a NB. I'm sure any Dash pilot can make it through the initial course, and work their way through indoc. The issue with going WB is going to be staying current. Juniority, and the number of sectors a month you do means you'll have to put in extra work to maintain proficiency. If you aren't self motivated, and you don't have decent jet experience to fall back on, staying on top of things once you get on line and do 4 landings a month on line, will be difficult.

The biggest factor is when the skipper goes on break, you might end up with 2 brand new guys holding down the fort. There is nothing wrong with being new, everybody is or was at one point. But it’s better if one or both of those guys have experience in that environment. On the NB, the longest a new hire is left alone is when the Capt has had that greasy burrito.

We need to make those right seat WB jobs attractive enough so that the guy with 3 or 4 years at the company wants to take them, and not sit as an RP. Easiest solution. Turf flat pay.

Any chance that the dash guys who would be happy to have a system that allows two new dash guys up front while the captain sleeps would have a temporary different opinion if they were on a zed fare to Australia?

[sportingrifle]

Tigger/Pelmet
+1
I have been in the exact position you describe and elected not to take much of a crew rest break out of the cockpit because of it.

D.P. Davies wrote a very comprehensive book (Handling the Big Jets) that used to be almost required reading for new hires. It was the “Bible” of knowledge for high speed/high altitude/swept wing aircraft handling. Now it seems a year in a Dash 8 at FL210 and a knowledge of company SOP’s is all that is required to safely navigate an airplane at high altitude and high mach numbers across severe weather systems and hours from any place to land.

[RVR6000]

F**k 4 years of flat pay, no legacy carrier in North America has that. It use to be 2 years let’s get that back. It should have been part of the 10 year contract, but too bad 86% were too blinded by the $10k signing bonus.

[Inverted2]

F**k 4 years of flat pay, no legacy carrier in North America has that. It use to be 2 years let’s get that back. It should have been part of the 10 year contract, but too bad 86% were too blinded by the $10k signing bonus.

I agree but they have no reason to get rid of flat pay. They could have 6 year flat pay and there would still be a sky high stack of resumes.

[a2btrail]

F**k 4 years of flat pay, no legacy carrier in North America has that. It use to be 2 years let’s get that back. It should have been part of the 10 year contract, but too bad 86% were too blinded by the $10k signing bonus.

I agree but they have no reason to get rid of flat pay. They could have 6 year flat pay and there would still be a sky high stack of resumes.

2 years? No thanks. Just abolish it.

They will when we start saying NO and stand up to what we want. Flat pay needs to be abolished. It's simple. We don't need leverage lol. We are coming to the end of a contract.

The reason why they will adjust is if the majority of us say NO and do not give into giving concessions.

It will not be an easy fight. But we need to get out of this mindset of " They need a magical reason" or " We need leverage".

Just say NO.

[Eric Janson]

Any chance that the dash guys who would be happy to have a system that allows two new dash guys up front while the captain sleeps would have a temporary different opinion if they were on a zed fare to Australia?

Disclaimer:- Don't work at Air Canada.

At my company all Captains are right seat qualified. This gives a huge amount of operational flexibility.

If we are 3 Pilots it will normally be 2 Captains. On a recent flight with 4 Pilots it was 3 Captains.

It's not unusual to do a 2 crew flight with another Captain - we alternate as Commander.

We have clients that specify that one Captain must be in the Cockpit at all times.

There's more than one way to do things.

[RVR6000]

F**k 4 years of flat pay, no legacy carrier in North America has that. It use to be 2 years let’s get that back. It should have been part of the 10 year contract, but too bad 86% were too blinded by the $10k signing bonus.

I agree but they have no reason to get rid of flat pay. They could have 6 year flat pay and there would still be a sky high stack of resumes.

That’s why it becomes incumbent on the membership to stand up and Say No. Imagine if we drew the line on the 4 year flat pay in 2014. But then again the likes of KV, DC, BM, CB and company were too busy spreading fear factor of can we do better in 2016.

The Jazz puppy mill will always be there, AC will never have supply issues.

[Transition9er2]

It’s one thing to be assigned a WB FO course with no jet experience, it’s an entirely different topic to hear AC is now filling the majority of PIT classes with small turbo prop experience.

Heard the latest PIT class of 38 only has 6-10 candidates with jet experience (flair, WJ, corporate etc) the rest are primarily made up of King Air, 1900 and Pilatus pilots. Not many jazz candidates in this one.

Based on this info, how long before the pool of experienced pilots to hire from starts to really run dry for AC?

[rudder]

It’s one thing to be assigned a WB FO course with no jet experience, it’s an entirely different topic to hear AC is now filling the majority of PIT classes with small turbo prop experience.

Heard the latest PIT class of 38 only has 6-10 candidates with jet experience (flair, WJ, corporate etc) the rest are primarily made up of King Air, 1900 and Pilatus pilots. Not many jazz candidates in this one.

Based on this info, how long before the pool of experienced pilots to hire from starts to really run dry for AC?

If AC offered $100k starting pay - the lowest experience pilot on a PIT course (OTS) would have 5000+ hours and at least 1 jet type endorsement, most likely MGTOW 100,000lbs+.

But that is not what is being offered in 2023.

[stall]

Tigger/Pelmet
+1
I have been in the exact position you describe and elected not to take much of a crew rest break out of the cockpit because of it.

D.P. Davies wrote a very comprehensive book (Handling the Big Jets) that used to be almost required reading for new hires. It was the “Bible” of knowledge for high speed/high altitude/swept wing aircraft handling. Now it seems a year in a Dash 8 at FL210 and a knowledge of company SOP’s is all that is required to safely navigate an airplane at high altitude and high mach numbers across severe weather systems and hours from any place to land.

Lol SportingRifle

You elect to fatigue yourself and choose not to utilize your augment resources because you don't trust the training of your employer & experience of your co-workers.

All while you were pro acpa and pro status quo because you see nothing wrong with the way things are heading.

Oh man

[sportingrifle]

Stall...
What an arrogant response that shows you probably have little if any experience operating multi crew ETOPS flights.
My union related political opinions or ideas for how the airline should be managed are most likely poorly understood by yourself, but in any event are irrelevant.
Myself and my colleagues are constantly having to manage crew experience levels against expected operational threats. And it would be very simple to manage my own fatigue risks in isolation as you suggest. But the fatigue risks of the entire crew needs to be managed in conjunction with the varying threat levels expected during the flight, as well as the crew members experience levels to manage them. I am thankful that the crews I work with, even the very junior crew members, understand all of this.