One ticket sold. What's the difference between the pilots flying a passenger on WestJet connecting to Delta in same day?

[CanadaAir]

The ticket sold by WestJet, with the passenger initially with WestJet pilots prior to flying with Delta pilots.

What's the difference between the pilots flying a passenger on WestJet connecting to Delta? Its the same.


WestJet and US airlines share same airspace & destinations & same geography east to west.

With codeshare a passenger can be on a WestJet flight then transition to Skywest and Delta in the same day.


Airspace, geography, destinations, aircraft type & passenger citizenship isn't reasons to pay WestJet pilots less.

Aviation's global. Passengers travel globally.
WestJets competing globally, the passengers are travelling around and connecting hubs.

[yowflyer23]

There’s no difference. Where the difference lies is that UA/DL/AA all have huge markets with strong business demand like NYC-LHR/CDG, LAX-JFK, etc etc. to pad their pockets with. Those markets make major Canadian markets look like YZF-YEV in comparison. If all the major US airlines only flew the transborder markets that AC, WS, etc fly, and nothing else, they sure as hell wouldn’t be able to afford the current US airline pilot rates. It should really not be the goal of any negotiation happening in Canada to reach pay parity with the US. Doing so is just ignoring basic economics.

However, there is lots of work to do on entry level and low seniority airline wages. That should be the focus. A far more comparable market with similar geographical and population constraints (Australia) has pilots making 90k as a starting wage on a 737/320 or 60k for a Q400 FO (this is 2018 figures). Their dollar is nearly 1 to 1 with similar taxation as well. Imagine being able to afford to live in cities you’re based in from day 1…

[Loading...]

There’s no difference. Where the difference lies is that UA/DL/AA all have huge markets with strong business demand like NYC-LHR/CDG, LAX-JFK, etc etc. to pad their pockets with. Those markets make major Canadian markets look like YZF-YEV in comparison. If all the major US airlines only flew the transborder markets that AC, WS, etc fly, and nothing else, they sure as hell wouldn’t be able to afford the current US airline pilot rates. It should really not be the goal of any negotiation happening in Canada to reach pay parity with the US. Doing so is just ignoring basic economics.

However, there is lots of work to do on entry level and low seniority airline wages. That should be the focus. A far more comparable market with similar geographical and population constraints (Australia) has pilots making 90k as a starting wage on a 737/320 or 60k for a Q400 FO (this is 2018 figures). Their dollar is nearly 1 to 1 with similar taxation as well. Imagine being able to afford to live in cities you’re based in from day 1…

No theres no reason for us to make less. You are comparing Yellowknife - Inuvik against LAX - JFK. Just look at routes like yul - yyz.

[CanadaAir]

yowflyer23
lots of work required on entry level and low seniority wages

AC's smaller than United but comparable on global scale. WestJet's moving global.
Both AC & WJ have business travel networks similar to in the US.

Don't see the difference you are suggesting.

Can you expand on your comment "Doing so is just ignoring basic economics?

[flyinhigh]

yowflyer23
lots of work required on entry level and low seniority wages

AC's smaller than United but comparable on global scale. WestJet's moving global.
Both AC & WJ have business travel networks similar to in the US.

Don't see the difference you are suggesting.

Can you expand on your comment "Doing so is just ignoring basic economics?

Mmm, sry WJ has its tail between it legs and limped off back home as it got beat down in the business market/global scale.

Look at one of ACs most profitable triangles. Filling 330s from YUL-YYZ while WJ had a hard time filling a Q.

Don’t take this as none support, because you have mine, but saying AC and WJ are comparable is just funny.

To the original poster, what’s the difference if that passenger connects onto a frontier flight? Everyone keeps looking to delta for comparison, but be careful because if the boarder is to be opened for comparators I can guarantee that Delta will not be utilized due to size, fleet, scope,etc or if it is it WILL be watered down with all the others as well.

I say this as I firmly wish I was making 400K to skipper a 37, but in a few years time Delta is going to have a serious financial issue. You cannot pay that kind of money to how many thousands of people in this industry without repercussions.

[ads-b]

Does anyone own a calculator?

The government offloaded airports. Used to be an expense now they charge insane lease rates to the not for profit airports. Now cash cow. No one cares.

AIF fees go up $10. No one cares.

NavCan increases fees. No one cares.

Pilots want an extra $2 per hour/per available seat and the sky is falling.

150 seats x $2 = $300 hr. Average WJ flight is prob 3 hours. That’s $6 a ticket to give a proper raise.

Time to stop the tail wagging the dog.

[‘Bob’]

Maybe you missed the post I made where Westjet is literally closer to a single McDonalds franchise than Delta Airlines in terms of size and wealth?

It’s never about one ticket sold. It’s about how many are sold and what proportion of each can be allocated towards pilot remuneration.

I bet even with WJ’s low salaries.. the portion of each ticket it pays to pilots is a lot higher than Delta’s.

[ads-b]

Well Bob, I could dig deep but here’s the thing. I don’t have to. I don’t care what portion of the ticket goes to the government, airports, nav can, fuel, office staff etc. I don’t care about size differential. I know we as a profession are worth more then $1 per hour per seat.

The end

[CanadaAir]

Does anyone own a calculator?

The government offloaded airports. Used to be an expense now they charge insane lease rates to the not for profit airports. Now cash cow. No one cares.

AIF fees go up $10. No one cares.

NavCan increases fees. No one cares.

Pilots want an extra $2 per hour/per available seat and the sky is falling.

150 seats x $2 = $300 hr. Average WJ flight is prob 3 hours. That’s $6 a ticket to give a proper raise.

Time to stop the tail wagging the dog.

This is right on.

A small fare increase pays off higher pilot wages without causing repercussions.

Airlines don't go bankrupt due to pilot wages.

Airlines go bankrupt due to accidents. Accidents are linked with poor pilot pay and cheap maintenance.
If airlines don't want accidents they have to pay for professionals.

[RippleRock]

I always get angry when I hear "your only Canadian" working in a Canadian environment.

SORRY. Same job as our US peers. EXACTLY. I don't care one fig if anyone thinks directly correlating our pay with those of the US is going to bankrupt an airline. There is no way compensating pilots 30-40% more is going to do much. Look at our piece of the "cost pie" compared to fuel. No one complains that much if fuel swings 20-30%.....we're 1/4 that.

If it really hurts the bottom line, they add on a fuel surcharge....... THEY DEAL WITH IT.

Deal with proper pilot compensation, and ---stop building sketchy airline business models based on paying crap wages---.

AND ABOVE ALL STOP TRYING TO GUILT PILOTS WITH WEAK ARGUEMENTS. We aren't listening, because the discount on pilot labour is OVER in Canada.

[rookiepilot]

AC's smaller than United but comparable on global scale. WestJet's moving global.

Now THAT is my comedy for the day.

WJ is literally among the last airlines on earth I’d take a chance on internationally. They are a complete joke in that department

[canadian_aviator_4]

Does anyone own a calculator?

The government offloaded airports. Used to be an expense now they charge insane lease rates to the not for profit airports. Now cash cow. No one cares.

AIF fees go up $10. No one cares.

NavCan increases fees. No one cares.

Pilots want an extra $2 per hour/per available seat and the sky is falling.

150 seats x $2 = $300 hr. Average WJ flight is prob 3 hours. That’s $6 a ticket to give a proper raise.

Time to stop the tail wagging the dog.

This is right on.

A small fare increase pays off higher pilot wages without causing repercussions.

Airlines don't go bankrupt due to pilot wages.

Airlines go bankrupt due to accidents. Accidents are linked with poor pilot pay and cheap maintenance.
If airlines don't want accidents they have to pay for professionals.

Good point and low pay was partially the cause for the colgan air incident in 2009: The first officer made below 20k per year so had to commute and on days off worked as a barista. Couldn’t afford accommodation, along with the captain while commuting. So they slept in the crew room. More or less Canada, where most first officers work multiple jobs as well as some captains out of necessity.

[rando]

If Canadians were really concerned about a small increase in airfares you would think they would be more vocal about their biggest expense, paying daddy Trudeau. That guy makes life more expensive for everyone, along with all the other levels of government.

You could triple pilot’s salaries and it would be a more efficient use of money than the taxes we pay.

Income tax, carbon tax, gas tax, hst tax on the gas tax, standard inflation tax, the new carbon tax inflation tax on everything including groceries, the plastic ban so I have to buy bag tax, sales tax, provincial pay the most but receive the least healthcare tax, property tax, home sale transfer tax, and more of the home sale tax if you in the big city extra tax, the tax that paid for the 15 year public transit train project that needs to be torn down and rebuilt for 5x the cost and a decade late, and hundreds of other baked in back door taxes you may not even be aware of.

I paid all these taxes and all daddy Trudeau gave me was a flyer asking if I would donate and show my support for the liberals. I said I’ll do ya one better, I’ll fight for a raise and give you half!

[yowflyer23]

There’s no difference. Where the difference lies is that UA/DL/AA all have huge markets with strong business demand like NYC-LHR/CDG, LAX-JFK, etc etc. to pad their pockets with. Those markets make major Canadian markets look like YZF-YEV in comparison. If all the major US airlines only flew the transborder markets that AC, WS, etc fly, and nothing else, they sure as hell wouldn’t be able to afford the current US airline pilot rates. It should really not be the goal of any negotiation happening in Canada to reach pay parity with the US. Doing so is just ignoring basic economics.

However, there is lots of work to do on entry level and low seniority airline wages. That should be the focus. A far more comparable market with similar geographical and population constraints (Australia) has pilots making 90k as a starting wage on a 737/320 or 60k for a Q400 FO (this is 2018 figures). Their dollar is nearly 1 to 1 with similar taxation as well. Imagine being able to afford to live in cities you’re based in from day 1…

No theres no reason for us to make less. You are comparing Yellowknife - Inuvik against LAX - JFK. Just look at routes like yul - yyz.

I think you misunderstood my comparison. What I'm saying is that the most profitable routes served from Canada (YYZ-LHR, YUL-CDG, YVR-SYD, YYZ-CUN/PUJ, for example.) pale in comparison to the yields seen on comparable routes from the US, which is further compounded by a higher cost environment. At the end of the day, their population base is multiple times the size of ours and they have more people and corporations that will pay to fly. We do have big markets within and to/from Canada and some of them bring in impressive revenues (I've seen the financials with my own eyes when making decisions on new routes to launch in a previous role), but there isn't as many of them and the important ones are simply smaller than their American counterparts. Perfect example is YYZ-LHR vs JFK-LHR. Go have a look at the difference in seats available between the two city pairs. Then go look at JFK-CDG vs YUL-CDG; LAX-HNL vs YVR-HNL, YVR-HKG vs LAX-HKG, etc. If Canada was all that you make it out to be, the current picture wouldn't make sense at all. Go compare fleet sizes as well. Fact of the matter is that the American airlines have more seats available to sell and they have access to a bigger selection of bigger markets to sell them to. Hence bigger profits and more money available to spend on labour.

You could argue that AC/WS carry 6th freedom US pax and therefore compete on the exact same markets, but those passengers are flown at a significant yield discount and they are just filler for what the local market cannot fill. People pay more when flights are non-stop. When a connection is involved, the willingness to pay goes down. Connecting in another country adds to that effect. This is why Westjet has 320 seat 789's with a tiny business cabin as an example. The local market of people who would fly from YYC to BCN (or really anywhere else they send their widebodies aside from London) is tiny, but they can fill the plane up with folks from LAX and SFO as long as the price is right. If you're filling the plane up with low-yielding price-sensitive connecting pax, you better have more seats available to be able to cover the operating costs with less revenue coming in per passenger.

There is definitely room to pay more liveable and fair wages in Canada, but the companies here do not have comparable profit margins in absolute terms. Yes the physical job itself is the same, but so what? The company could also make the same argument: The Canadian airlines do the same exact same business as the US airlines so why are the passengers not paying them the same? Why are the profits smaller? They're the exact same businesses afterall... right?

Look, I fully support higher pilot pay. I want to be paid a fair wage for the work I put in and it would be great to have an ROI on my student debt, but I would hate for the demands to be so ridiculous that nothing ever gets agreed to and things stay the same, or worse, it gets agreed to and the companies don't survive and I have no career ahead of me. When I hear things like Perimeter Dash-8 pilots wanting to be paid $250k and that's why contract talks are stalling, meanwhile 1st FO's are struggling to make ends meet on $29k/yr it pisses me off. It's just greed at that point and it's to the detriment of junior pilots.

[rando]

Daddy Legault says it takes courage to give themselves a 30k raise. I think every Quebec based pilot is going to need a 30k raise to help pay taxes for this. Know your worth… these guys don’t even ask for a raise, they just take your money.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9696538/queb ... -salaries/

[CanadaAir]

I think you misunderstood my comparison. What I'm saying is that the most profitable routes served from Canada (YYZ-LHR, YUL-CDG, YVR-SYD, YYZ-CUN/PUJ, for example.) pale in comparison to the yields seen on comparable routes from the US, which is further compounded by a higher cost environment. At the end of the day, their population base is multiple times the size of ours and they have more people and corporations that will pay to fly. We do have big markets within and to/from Canada and some of them bring in impressive revenues (I've seen the financials with my own eyes when making decisions on new routes to launch in a previous role), but there isn't as many of them and the important ones are simply smaller than their American counterparts. Perfect example is YYZ-LHR vs JFK-LHR. Go have a look at the difference in seats available between the two city pairs. Then go look at JFK-CDG vs YUL-CDG; LAX-HNL vs YVR-HNL, YVR-HKG vs LAX-HKG, etc. If Canada was all that you make it out to be, the current picture wouldn't make sense at all. Go compare fleet sizes as well. Fact of the matter is that the American airlines have more seats available to sell and they have access to a bigger selection of bigger markets to sell them to. Hence bigger profits and more money available to spend on labour.

You could argue that AC/WS carry 6th freedom US pax and therefore compete on the exact same markets, but those passengers are flown at a significant yield discount and they are just filler for what the local market cannot fill. People pay more when flights are non-stop. When a connection is involved, the willingness to pay goes down. Connecting in another country adds to that effect. This is why Westjet has 320 seat 789's with a tiny business cabin as an example. The local market of people who would fly from YYC to BCN (or really anywhere else they send their widebodies aside from London) is tiny, but they can fill the plane up with folks from LAX and SFO as long as the price is right. If you're filling the plane up with low-yielding price-sensitive connecting pax, you better have more seats available to be able to cover the operating costs with less revenue coming in per passenger.

There is definitely room to pay more liveable and fair wages in Canada, but the companies here do not have comparable profit margins in absolute terms. Yes the physical job itself is the same, but so what?

Thanks for expanding on your earlier comments.

It's more complex & there are business aspects which counter the economics.

Based on your comments above,
How can a King Air operator pay it's pilots over $200,000/year, with only a few 9 seat aircraft?

The King Air has less seats available & the company size is small, 10 aircraft compared to hundreds at an airline.

There are aspects beyond available seats, load and company size.

[CanadaAir]

Maybe you missed the post I made where Westjet is literally closer to a single McDonalds franchise than Delta Airlines in terms of size and wealth?

It’s never about one ticket sold. It’s about how many are sold and what proportion of each can be allocated towards pilot remuneration.

I bet even with WJ’s low salaries.. the portion of each ticket it pays to pilots is a lot higher than Delta’s.

It's more complex

Based on your comments above,
How can a King Air operator pay it's pilots over $200,000/year, with only a few 9 seat aircraft?

The King Air has less seats available & the company size is small, 10 aircraft compared to hundreds at an airline.

There are aspects beyond available seats, load and company size.

[CanadaAir]

To the original poster, what’s the difference if that passenger connects onto a frontier flight? Everyone keeps looking to delta for comparison, but be careful because if the boarder is to be opened for comparators I can guarantee that Delta will not be utilized due to size, fleet, scope,etc or if it is it WILL be watered down with all the others as well.

I say this as I firmly wish I was making 400K to skipper a 37, but in a few years time Delta is going to have a serious financial issue. You cannot pay that kind of money to how many thousands of people in this industry without repercussions.

Delta is the WJ codeshare partner. Which is why its used.
WJ sells tickets to passengers connecting with Delta.

Frontier's not a partner, doesn't fly to Canada or long haul.

Delta paying higher doesn't link to financial issues.
Large pilot pay increase can be done with small fare increases, not impacting profits.

Higher pilot pay can decrease costs. Training costs go down, recruitment costs down, efficient operations with experienced pilots.

Less cost of crashes with well paid professionals. The Colgan crash put 3 airlines out of business.

“I want to thank both negotiating teams and the National Mediation Board for their efforts in reaching this agreement that recognizes our pilots’ contributions to Delta,” said Delta Chief of Operations John Laughter. “From the beginning of the negotiations process, we set out to deliver the industry’s best pilot contract to the industry’s best pilots, one that keeps us as a top destination for U.S. aviation careers, and this contract is a reflection of that unwavering commitment.”

[yowflyer23]

Based on your comments above,
How can a King Air operator pay it's pilots over $200,000/year, with only a few 9 seat aircraft?

The King Air has less seats available & the company size is small, 10 aircraft compared to hundreds at an airline.

There are aspects beyond available seats, load and company size.

I’ve been asking myself the same thing. Do they not have fixed/negotiated income from government contracts? I assume they could just go to the government and say that they will be unable to offer reliable medevac service if they cannot retain pilots and ask them to pay up more? And then tax payers pay for it. That’s my guess. Doesn’t quite work the same in the commercial world.

[CanadaAir]

Based on your comments above,
How can a King Air operator pay it's pilots over $200,000/year, with only a few 9 seat aircraft?

The King Air has less seats available & the company size is small, 10 aircraft compared to hundreds at an airline.

There are aspects beyond available seats, load and company size.

I’ve been asking myself the same thing. Do they not have fixed/negotiated income from government contracts? I assume they could just go to the government and say that they will be unable to offer reliable medevac service if they cannot retain pilots and ask them to pay up more? And then tax payers pay for it. That’s my guess. Doesn’t quite work the same in the commercial world.

the King air captains operate Medevac & charter, there aren't always contracts for flights
Its not a difference between commercial & Medevac

even with a fixed government contract pilot wages can rise, between the management & crew.

Some operators don't increase pilot wages for same work

if one company went to the government & was issued higher pay to retain pilots, then all operators would go to the government
This hasn't happened.

[‘Bob’]

Air line pilots would be crying at the schedule and YOS required to earn $200k a year to fly a King Air.

Also company overhead is much lower and usually it’s with padded government contracts.

Also good old supply and demand. There’s no shortage of suckers willing to work for flat pay. The only reason WJ isn’t paying it because they aren’t a real mainline airline. Look at how many left Westjet for flat pay.. lol.

[CanadaAir]

Air line pilots would be crying at the schedule and YOS required to earn $200k a year to fly a King Air.

Also company overhead is much lower and usually it’s with padded government contracts.

Also good old supply and demand. There’s no shortage of suckers willing to work for flat pay. The only reason WJ isn’t paying it because they aren’t a real mainline airline. Look at how many left Westjet for flat pay.. lol.

$200,000/year for King Air is happening with a few YOS. Airline pilots gone half month. Medevac gone half month. Same.

Government contacts aren't linked to higher pilot wages. Some operators pay higher than others, both with government contracts.
Airlines can have government contracts at times.

There's a supply of low time pilots. No shortage.
High time on type experienced pilots on company routes. There's a shortage.

Not safe when north King Air pilots transition Direct Captain jet YYZ to LGA. Jazz can try. Setting up accident & end of Jazz.
Where's the cost savings when aircraft go down?

Where's the cost savings when TC shuts a company down or new regulations for 1500 hr pilots?

Airlines can continue to cut and keep wages low if they want higher costs with accidents.
Costs of accident exceed costs of small pilot wage increases.

[CanadaAir]

Historically, the top factor which determines whether or not an airline collapses is the airline’s safety record & accidents.

When airlines operate unsafe & have multiple safety incidents, passengers stop booking flights.

If there is a major accident or crash, the airline is usually done.

Colgan Air is an example
After the crash in Buffalo

Colgan Air went out of business
Pinnacle Airlines went out of business
Continental Connections went out of business (absorbed by United – now highly paid pilots)
Continental Airlines went out of business (absorbed by United – now highly paid pilots)


Colgan Air pilot pay, work/life balance, fatigue all played a role in the accident.

The crash resulted in the 1500 hour rule which restricted pilot supply, resulting in airlines having to pay pilots more to continue operating. In the end, the airlines had to pay higher pilot wages, more than they would have paid if there hadn’t been a crash without the 1500 hour rule.

Wouldn’t be a more profitable solution for Continnental, Pinnacle & Colgan to have paid pilots higher before the crash? To have maintained a better work/life balance for their pilots before the crash?

If the company had done so, the accident wouldn’t have occurred. Coglan, Pinnacle & Continental wouldn’t have lost business and the companies could still be operating today, a more profitable outcome and without the expensive 1500 hour rule restricting airline hiring.

Colgan is one of many examples. Several Canadian operators have closed due to accidents.

Maintaining top safety and avoiding an accident is in everyone’s interest, the pilots & the management.

If higher pay and better work life balance is required to retain experienced pilots and high safety levels, then it’s a cheaper solution rather than building the environment for a crash and resulting bankruptcy.

[rookiepilot]

Does anyone own a calculator?

The government offloaded airports. Used to be an expense now they charge insane lease rates to the not for profit airports. Now cash cow. No one cares.

AIF fees go up $10. No one cares.

NavCan increases fees. No one cares.

Pilots want an extra $2 per hour/per available seat and the sky is falling.

150 seats x $2 = $300 hr. Average WJ flight is prob 3 hours. That’s $6 a ticket to give a proper raise.

Time to stop the tail wagging the dog.

This is right on.

A small fare increase pays off higher pilot wages without causing repercussions.

Airlines don't go bankrupt due to pilot wages.

Airlines go bankrupt due to accidents. Accidents are linked with poor pilot pay and cheap maintenance.
If airlines don't want accidents they have to pay for professionals.

Good point and low pay was partially the cause for the colgan air incident in 2009: The first officer made below 20k per year so had to commute and on days off worked as a barista. Couldn’t afford accommodation, along with the captain while commuting. So they slept in the crew room. More or less Canada, where most first officers work multiple jobs as well as some captains out of necessity.

Partially.

Didn’t that captain have a very checkered history when it came to passing his rides?

[BTD]

This is right on.

A small fare increase pays off higher pilot wages without causing repercussions.

Airlines don't go bankrupt due to pilot wages.

Airlines go bankrupt due to accidents. Accidents are linked with poor pilot pay and cheap maintenance.
If airlines don't want accidents they have to pay for professionals.

Good point and low pay was partially the cause for the colgan air incident in 2009: The first officer made below 20k per year so had to commute and on days off worked as a barista. Couldn’t afford accommodation, along with the captain while commuting. So they slept in the crew room. More or less Canada, where most first officers work multiple jobs as well as some captains out of necessity.

Partially.

Didn’t that captain have a very checkered history when it came to passing his rides?

He did. However, one of the bigger points about higher pay, is that it attracts “the best and brightest” as Sully put it. Lower pay entices less people to pursue it as a career. Highly intelligent and skilled individuals will choose other careers. With less competition the bar for entry decreases and worse candidates end up sitting in the seat.

The 1500hr rule in the US definitely made a difference. But regionals paying 18K a year from 2005-2010 also impacted supply, we are simply seeing the impact of that today.

Increasing wages now needs to be done, not just to for pilots currently employed, but as an investment in the future. So that 20 years from now when someone gets on an airliner, the best person for the job is sitting up front.