WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

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pelmet
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WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by pelmet »

Looks like the media might not be on their side.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/travel/news/l ... dbd7&ei=49

Is the article accurate?
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed May 17, 2023 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by pelmet »

Your travel plans could be thrown into chaos this weekend because WestJet pilots think earning more than $300,000 per year is like living in poverty. The pilot’s union has filed a strike notice for Friday morning; the company has replied with a notice to lock pilots out.

In the end, you get burned trying to go see your Aunt Mildred in Victoria or the cousins in Fredericton for the Victoria Day long weekend.

It’s not like we haven’t had enough problems with travel in the last few years.

There were, of course, the COVID-19 restrictions on travel, there were endless delays last summer for take-offs and landings, followed by never-ending baggage issues. Now, we have to deal with a strike from the number two air carrier in the country.

According to a memo from the company to flight crews that was reported on by Canadian Press , the new contract offer from the company would have captains working the company’s 737 fleet top out at $300,000 by the end of the contract, while those flying 767 and 787 models would top out at $350,000.

The union’s response to that memo leaking was to say that the company had “cherry-picked” the high salaries and claim to Global News that many pilots can’t make ends meet. Given that the full contract for the pilots is posted on the federal ministry of labour’s website , we can all judge for ourselves.

A first officer, who helps the captain navigate, has a starting wage of $64.92 per hour, going as high as $156.09 after 10 years. Captains start at $158.45 per hour and go up to $258.30 per hour after 11 years. If they are flying the larger planes, those on the 737 top out at $222.51 per hour after 11 years.

Given pilots work roughly 960 hours per year, that means the annual salary ranges from a starting pay of $62,000 for a brand-new first officer to $248,000 after 11 years. That’s all without any overtime or shift bonuses that can push wages higher.

According to industry sources, the average WestJet pilot earns $225,000 per year while working 16 days a month. That is hardly poverty wages, that is hardly making ends meet for the vast majority of Canadians for whom air travel is an expensive luxury.

Look, we should all want our pilots well rested and well paid so they are alert and, on the ball, getting us to our destination safely, but claiming you are hard done by and having trouble making ends meet with these kinds of wages is unbelievable.

The contract also spells out a general benefits package, the payment of all hotel and travel costs related to the jobs, a generous per diem for food while travelling for work and a profit-sharing program. Part of the problem for WestJet is that the company hasn’t turned a profit since 2019 just before the pandemic hit.

WestJet pilots issue 72-hour strike notice, and plan job action Friday
'Massive' gap between WestJet, pilots' union as strike looms and bookings fall: CEO
Like any company in the travel or hospitality space, WestJet has struggled through the pandemic and now they are facing a strike that puts the whole thing at risk. Not a bright move from the pilots who spent months worrying about whether their employer would survive.

The company says they have given the pilots a reasonable and generous offer; the union says the company simply isn’t offering enough. Meanwhile, the average Canadian, earning just under $70,000 annually while working far more than 960 hours a year, is the one left stuck at the airport hoping they can find their luggage.

Don’t expect a lot of support for the pilots if this strike does go ahead.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by Canpilot7 »

First officers may want to send them an email asking for info on where they can apply to have a job simply "helping the captain navigate". What a gig!
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by cjp »

One might use a perjorative terms such as: Fake news.

No actual research performed - just a slam piece.

Unfortunately, this is what makes it into the 0700 Google news thread for most Canadians and Americans.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by rando »

Media should ask some better questions in these interviews. Such as things about how the air Canada ceo just got over 200 percent increase in compensation, how are these optics that you think a 2 digit, aka 10 percent increase is satisfactory for pilot.

Also the ceo admits US pilots are paid double, and he says its not possible here. Go into the details why. Ask where all this money is going. Make him shit all over government policy, expose what is really going on here. Canadians need to know where all their money is going. Not to the middle class, it goes to corporations and governments. Ask him why Canada has some of the highest air fares in the world yet some of the lowest paid pilots. Do you all see a huge disconnect? Where does the money go?

Also media could keep reinforce the pay by the hour claim. Every time he said paid x per hour correct him and say they are paid that only while the aircraft is moving, but not for any time on the ground including delay etc.

Maybe pilots should take a contract with the duty credit numbers and change them to the "per hour" you want the public to think we get paid. 64 per hour is now 130k a year.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by Inverted2 »

Strikes can be nasty events. Expect the management to release all kinds of misleading propaganda to the media. And our media in case you’ve been living under a rock isn’t the most trustworthy these days. Anyone remember all the 💩 we were fed during the scamdemic?
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by Rednaxela »

Hi Pelmet,

Just to enlighten you a bit I just wanted to post the following.

It’s not just about what the top guy gets after spending 10 years gaining experience at a small operator then 10 years as a First Officer or more, as it is at Westjet currently, then 11 years as Captain to that top payscale, it’s about the whole group so let’s talk about the whole group and not just the headlining top salary that they lead you to believe all pilots will achieve at the end of the contract.

So let’s talk about the lower end of the payscale.
Your quote of the average Canadian wage of 70,000 per year can be made all across the country in many different vocations for the most part. So an airline rated pilot starts out less than the Canadian average at 65,000 like you quoted and can’t just live anywhere because Westjet pilot bases are only in Toronto Vancouver and Calgary.
Can anyone afford to live in Toronto or Vancouver, even at that top payscale you won’t find much you can afford in these cities. By the way I believe Calgary is the senior base so if you want to be there and find a reasonable priced home maybe after 10 years? Then become captain and have to go back to Toronto.
Some pilots commute from other cities at their cost for travel whether it’s driving or flying and a hotel the night before their duty starts. This is all time away from family because they can not afford to live in the city the company has them based at.

I agree with you 100% on all your frustrations of the past few years and all the challenges airline flying has had as a passenger. What I can’t figure out is how the pilots were to blame for any of that.
Those issues are a result of poor management from the managers at the airlines and to another extent the government regulations as it pertained to the pandemic and staffing at the airports.
Pilots are not responsible for the bags at a carousel or the delays at airports due to staffing problems.

Let’s move onto days and hours worked as this is a good one and not very understood by anyone else other than flight crew directly including flight attendants.
16 days a month of work sounds great! But before judging that 16 day a month schedule let’s look a little closer. Those 16 days are not showing up and 9:00 and clocking out at 17:00 with an hour for lunch in the park.
As a pilot days average 11 hours probably and can go up to 13 hours. If something happens unforeseen and we all know that happens with weather, connections, ground handling issues etc, those days can be extended up to 15 hours in a day.
These long days rarely start at any kind of regular business hour, they start at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning meaning they are waking up at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. On the other extreme sometimes they fly all night long and finish work at 8:00 in the morning. This is what is involved in those 16 days of work.

Now the 960 hours of work you quote.
Not so many hours you say?
These are the hours pilots are paid for. These hours are only when the aircraft is actually moving.
What is not calculated in that is the 1 hour before flight pilots need to be at the gate, the 1 hour on the ground during the stops, and the time spent after the flight waiting for everyone to disembark. This averages about 3 hours per day of work pilots don’t get credited and paid for.
When there are any delays to do with anything like weather, connections, ground handling, Air Traffic Control etc pilots don’t get paid for that either and none of these are uncommon. So 3 hours per day at 16 days per month equals 48 hours per month not credited or paid. 960 quickly inflates to 1500+ per year without any unforeseen delays.

You also comment on the benefit of having hotel rooms and meals paid for as a perk??? When the company overnights a pilot in another city are you saying it is a benefit that the company gives the pilot a place to sleep that night?

And last but not least you talk about the past and not turning a profit since 2019. I understand but those pilots are not negotiating a contract for the past 3 years they are negotiating one for the future and with what is happening today. Westjet is private and only certain people know the real numbers.
What we do know is they just bought Sunwing after going through a few years of losses, imagine what the finances will be with the demand for air travel and high ticket prices we see now going forward.

The pilots have every right to fight for and be compensated for the career they chose and have worked hard for to get where they are.

They are negotiating their futures.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by digits_ »

Rednaxela wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:36 am
Your quote of the average Canadian wage of 70,000 per year can be made all across the country in many different vocations for the most part. So an airline rated pilot starts out less than the Canadian average at 65,000 like you quoted and can’t just live anywhere because Westjet pilot bases are only in Toronto Vancouver and Calgary.


Can anyone afford to live in Toronto or Vancouver,
You have to be a bit careful making statements like that. It makes it sound like everyone in Toronto or Vancouver makes at least 70 000 CAD. Most of the public likely does not make that.
The average vancouver bc salary in Canada is $59,432 per year or $30.48 per hour. Entry-level positions start at $39,881 per year, while most experienced workers make up to $123,905 per year.
source: https://ca.talent.com/salary?job=vancou ... per%20year.

The whole 'unable to ends meet' aspect of the (public) discussion is a red herring, and one that WestJet pilots likely won't win.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

What, now I'm supposed to feel guilty because I make more money than someone who works at the Tim Horton's drive through? Different jobs are paid differently. We don't compare ourselves with minimum wage workers, just like we don't compare ourselves with neurosurgeons. We compare ourselves with other pilots doing the same jobs that we do.

The media is trying to villinize pilots and their worth.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by Rednaxela »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:12 am What, now I'm supposed to feel guilty because I make more money than someone who works at the Tim Horton's drive through? Different jobs are paid differently. We don't compare ourselves with minimum wage workers, just like we don't compare ourselves with neurosurgeons. We compare ourselves with other pilots doing the same jobs that we do.

The media is trying to villinize pilots and their worth.
Exactly! Apples to apples not apples to oranges.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by twa22 »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 am
Rednaxela wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:36 am
Your quote of the average Canadian wage of 70,000 per year can be made all across the country in many different vocations for the most part. So an airline rated pilot starts out less than the Canadian average at 65,000 like you quoted and can’t just live anywhere because Westjet pilot bases are only in Toronto Vancouver and Calgary.


Can anyone afford to live in Toronto or Vancouver,
You have to be a bit careful making statements like that. It makes it sound like everyone in Toronto or Vancouver makes at least 70 000 CAD. Most of the public likely does not make that.
The average vancouver bc salary in Canada is $59,432 per year or $30.48 per hour. Entry-level positions start at $39,881 per year, while most experienced workers make up to $123,905 per year.
source: https://ca.talent.com/salary?job=vancou ... per%20year.

The whole 'unable to ends meet' aspect of the (public) discussion is a red herring, and one that WestJet pilots likely won't win.
Please, don't spew around garbage from crap sources that are self reported. The average FULL TIME worker wage is 90,000 in Toronto Metropolitan and 82,600 in Vancouver Metropolitan as of 2020 stats. Full time worker is needed for context as pilots are FULL TIME employees

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-rece ... ADERlist=7
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by digits_ »

twa22 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:23 am
digits_ wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 am
Rednaxela wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:36 am
Your quote of the average Canadian wage of 70,000 per year can be made all across the country in many different vocations for the most part. So an airline rated pilot starts out less than the Canadian average at 65,000 like you quoted and can’t just live anywhere because Westjet pilot bases are only in Toronto Vancouver and Calgary.


Can anyone afford to live in Toronto or Vancouver,
You have to be a bit careful making statements like that. It makes it sound like everyone in Toronto or Vancouver makes at least 70 000 CAD. Most of the public likely does not make that.
The average vancouver bc salary in Canada is $59,432 per year or $30.48 per hour. Entry-level positions start at $39,881 per year, while most experienced workers make up to $123,905 per year.
source: https://ca.talent.com/salary?job=vancou ... per%20year.

The whole 'unable to ends meet' aspect of the (public) discussion is a red herring, and one that WestJet pilots likely won't win.
Please, don't spew around garbage from crap sources that are self reported. The average FULL TIME worker wage in Toronto is 90,000 in Toronto Metropolitan and 82,600 in Vancouver Metropolitan as of 2020 stats. Full time worker is needed for context as pilots are FULL TIME employees

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-rece ... ADERlist=7
For salary, median is much more meaningful. Median income for full time workers in your source for Vancouver is 66,500 and Toronto 69,500.
That's median, which means that 50% of the people living there make less. If you claim that WestJet's starting salary is not enough to make ends meet, then logically that would mean that 50% of the people living in Vancouver, can't make ends meet either. And perhaps that's true. I just find that particular aspect a bit weak given that data. And especially towards the non-pilot public it's a horrible argument that you will never ever win. Don't focus on that aspect. Focus on comparing to other countries, on the inflation, the lack of cost of living increases etc.

But trying to defend 65k as a poverty wage is a losing battle. Because it isn't. Then that gets twisted into 'it's a poverty wage for a pilot', as if a pilot is somehow incapable of living on a 65k salary just because he's a pilot. That doesn't get you any sympathy points with the public either.

You have my full support for a strike, and I think the 65k should be at least doubled for any airline position, but it's not a poverty wage.
Encore and Jazz FOs could make that argument I believe, but not WestJet. You have plenty of other arguments. PIvot the discussion away from this particular point. It doesn't make you look good.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by twa22 »

digits_ wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:33 am
twa22 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:23 am
digits_ wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 8:07 am

You have to be a bit careful making statements like that. It makes it sound like everyone in Toronto or Vancouver makes at least 70 000 CAD. Most of the public likely does not make that.


source: https://ca.talent.com/salary?job=vancou ... per%20year.

The whole 'unable to ends meet' aspect of the (public) discussion is a red herring, and one that WestJet pilots likely won't win.
Please, don't spew around garbage from crap sources that are self reported. The average FULL TIME worker wage in Toronto is 90,000 in Toronto Metropolitan and 82,600 in Vancouver Metropolitan as of 2020 stats. Full time worker is needed for context as pilots are FULL TIME employees

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-rece ... ADERlist=7
For salary, median is much more meaningful. Median income for full time workers in your source for Vancouver is 66,500 and Toronto 69,500.
That's median, which means that 50% of the people living there make less. If you claim that WestJet's starting salary is not enough to make ends meet, then logically that would mean that 50% of the people living in Vancouver, can't make ends meet either. And perhaps that's true. I just find that particular aspect a bit weak given that data. And especially towards the non-pilot public it's a horrible argument that you will never ever win. Don't focus on that aspect. Focus on comparing to other countries, on the inflation, the lack of cost of living increases etc.

But trying to defend 65k as a poverty wage is a losing battle. Because it isn't. Then that gets twisted into 'it's a poverty wage for a pilot', as if a pilot is somehow incapable of living on a 65k salary just because he's a pilot. That doesn't get you any sympathy points with the public either.

You have my full support for a strike, and I think the 65k should be at least doubled for any airline position, but it's not a poverty wage.
Encore and Jazz FOs could make that argument I believe, but not WestJet. You have plenty of other arguments. PIvot the discussion away from this particular point. It doesn't make you look good.
I'd argue 65k IS poverty wages for anyone in a city like Toronto or Vancouver, so the argument stands for any industry, no less us pilots. At 65k, deduct taxes, and rent being 2500ish a month on average in these 2 cities, do the math and tell me at the end of the day that 65k isn't close to poverty wage, if not at poverty. I get your points, but reality is, 65k is coming close to poverty in major cities, which is nuts, for any industry
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

I've spent the last hour so in my hotel room, reading comments on different news sites. The majority of those (on many platforms) are not with pilots. They think we're overpaid, spoiled kids. This is a tough sell to the public, but thankfully, its not them who we have to convince.

On a side note, I also don't care about someone's opinion, that expects a $69 fare from Edmonton to Toronto. :lol: :roll:
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by 330heavy »

Media should ask some better questions in these interviews.
Just tell them the minority pilots (female, of colour etc) are paid proverty wages, that'll get the media on side. Of course we know it's not true and pay is equal for all as per YoS. Unfortunately we have the option to a) be like the company and cherry pick info / false impression b) tell the truth / fact check c) combination of both. But to win, we need good PR
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by Inverted2 »

RoAF-Mig21 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:12 am I've spent the last hour so in my hotel room, reading comments on different news sites. The majority of those (on many platforms) are not with pilots. They think we're overpaid, spoiled kids. This is a tough sell to the public, but thankfully, its not them who we have to convince.

On a side note, I also don't care about someone's opinion, that expects a $69 fare from Edmonton to Toronto. :lol: :roll:
Don’t read too much into the comments on the CBC site. They have paid bots that post comments that aren’t real people.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by Bingo Fuel »

Keep blaming the media instead of WestJet management and Alexis von Hoensbroech will keep laughing all the way to the bank.

The media, politics, culture wars and public perception are a distraction. They will not determine your WAWCON.

Stay focused. Apply pressure where it counts.

Time to start thinking like activists.
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by Anonymouse »

We all know that article is complete bullshit. It's a strike. People spent hundreds or thousands on flights and bow they're worried about losing money and travel being disrupted, and they're looking for a scapegoat. Its understandable.

Best we can do is not share these trashy articles, and when you see them shared on social media, politely refute the points. Argue the obvious ones like hours of "work" not even coming close to the hours of actual work we do (everyone's on the flight attendants side when it comes to being paid for work on the ground, point out that pilots have the same pay structure!), make sure they know that first officer at Westjet isn't an "entry level" position by any means.

But remember the fight isn't against the media! Stay strong, make Alexis cave!
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

Bingo Fuel wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:45 am Keep blaming the media instead of WestJet management and Alexis von Hoensbroech will keep laughing all the way to the bank.

The media, politics, culture wars and public perception are a distraction. They will not determine your WAWCON.

Stay focused. Apply pressure where it counts.

Time to start thinking like activists.
100% agree
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Re: WestJet pilots to strike because $300K a year ain't enough

Post by 330heavy »

Bingo Fuel wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 9:45 am Keep blaming the media instead of WestJet management and Alexis von Hoensbroech will keep laughing all the way to the bank.

The media, politics, culture wars and public perception are a distraction. They will not determine your WAWCON.

Stay focused. Apply pressure where it counts.

Time to start thinking like activists.
While I agree, it's not about blaming media, it's having the public on our side. No company wants bad PR, and having the public on our side will put pressure on mangement.
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