Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:06 am
I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.
The worst part is that when the dust settles and WS pilots see what a weak contract this is, AC will continue to have zero trouble attracting WS pilots, and with no trouble filling groundschools, flay pay is here to stay. Plus there's nothing here for Encore, plus WG captains will all quit when they get downgraded as will lots of Swoopers, plus Sunwing FO's will go from 2 year upgrades to WS's 10+ year plan, the company still has the ability to weaponize jumpseat travel which hurts WS commuters....
Co-Joe, you are a hypocrite beyond measure. Maybe just a troll. Pumping up Flair contract then cutting down WJ's?
What does Encore have to do with any of this? There will be no downgrades at SWG. Jump seat is the least of anyone's concern. Swoop downgrade but compensation remains the same? Ride that senior FO sched/skipper pay forever! How about you vote no to your own weak TA in the future vs down talk anyone else's agreements??
airway wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:40 am
There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%
2023-05-21.png
2019 was actually the start of the last contract. Same BofC calculator has inflation at exactly 15% for that period.
Ok thanks for the correction. What was the date that the last contract started?
Jan 1
Something we are all forgetting to consider in this "15% doesn't even cover inflation" discussion (when comparing from start of CA1 to now) is that we did receive annual increases of 2, 2, and 2.5. Yes that fell way short of inflation, but saying this 15% increase doesn't even cover inflation since the start of our contract is not entirely accurate. There is a little raise in there. Not defending anything. This did fall short of what I was expecting after all the hype. Just being fair. Still waiting to read the entire TA before making up my mind.
That and what does average 15% actually mean? There are going to be some very happy pilots who fall on the good side of that average and some cranky pilots who fall on the other side.
Further to lostaviator’s post, I did provide this comment on the Telegram chat that agrees completely with lostaviator and provides some further consideration.
Using the Bank of Canada calculator, inflation from the beginning of CA1 til now was 15%. BUT, CA1 had yearly cost of living increases of 2%, 2% and 2.5%, compounded. Meaning it accounted for 6.64% of the 15% inflation. The average 15.5% wage increase is higher than the remaining 8.36%, so it’s capturing inflation and giving us an additional (average) of 7.14% raise.
It’s also important to note that during this time period, inflation in the US was higher than in Canada. The US Dept of Labor’s inflation calculator pegs it at 18%. Which, coincidentally, is the EXACT amount of Delta’s initial wage increase in their contract.
If folks want to say that the initial 7% wage increase isn’t enough, fair enough. But the reality is, Delta’s 34% increase is over 4 years and is actually (just) 18% initially, which, with a higher inflation rate in the states, is very comparable to this AIP’s average initial wage increase.
JBI wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 2:02 pm
Further to lostaviator’s post, I did provide this comment on the Telegram chat that agrees completely with lostaviator and provides some further consideration.
Using the Bank of Canada calculator, inflation from the beginning of CA1 til now was 15%. BUT, CA1 had yearly cost of living increases of 2%, 2% and 2.5%, compounded. Meaning it accounted for 6.64% of the 15% inflation. The average 15.5% wage increase is higher than the remaining 8.36%, so it’s capturing inflation and giving us an additional (average) of 7.14% raise.
It’s also important to note that during this time period, inflation in the US was higher than in Canada. The US Dept of Labor’s inflation calculator pegs it at 18%. Which, coincidentally, is the EXACT amount of Delta’s initial wage increase in their contract.
If folks want to say that the initial 7% wage increase isn’t enough, fair enough. But the reality is, Delta’s 34% increase is over 4 years and is actually (just) 18% initially, which, with a higher inflation rate in the states, is very comparable to this AIP’s average initial wage increase.
This may be true, however a 34% increase on a salary that is double ours will result in a very different increase. It would be in effect a 68% increase on an equivalent Canadian salary. The gap would then continue to widen.....
Ash Ketchum wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:06 am
I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.
The worst part is that when the dust settles and WS pilots see what a weak contract this is, AC will continue to have zero trouble attracting WS pilots, and with no trouble filling groundschools, flay pay is here to stay. Plus there's nothing here for Encore, plus WG captains will all quit when they get downgraded as will lots of Swoopers, plus Sunwing FO's will go from 2 year upgrades to WS's 10+ year plan, the company still has the ability to weaponize jumpseat travel which hurts WS commuters....
Co-Joe, you are a hypocrite beyond measure. Maybe just a troll. Pumping up Flair contract then cutting down WJ's?
What does Encore have to do with any of this? There will be no downgrades at SWG. Jump seat is the least of anyone's concern. Swoop downgrade but compensation remains the same? Ride that senior FO sched/skipper pay forever! How about you vote no to your own weak TA in the future vs down talk anyone else's agreements??
Co-joe's attitude is the issue with the majority of pilots in Canada honestly. Pilots from every other company were so quick to look down on flair for signing a crap deal, and now on to the next one. Pilots at AC and Flair are going to whine about Westjet voting yes on this one (because I'm sure they will vote yes), and then AC will negotiate a crap deal and everyone will say they're to blame for the shit Canadian wages, and then lynx will come up with a deal we'll all say is crap. And the cycle will keep continuing. It's always the other pilot group's fault.
It's hypocrisy at its finest. You gotta love these guys who will vote yes on their own measly gains and expect others to do the leg work and go on strike instead.
I'm sure co-joe and plenty of others would happily support picketing pilots at other companies while voting yes on their own lesser contract not even 6 months ago.
Only way we're getting any change is if every pilotnin canada starts working on their EB2, but who can afford that on these wages.
MAX8 Driver wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 5:28 pm
Co-Joe, you are a hypocrite beyond measure. Maybe just a troll. Pumping up Flair contract then cutting down WJ's?
What does Encore have to do with any of this? There will be no downgrades at SWG. Jump seat is the least of anyone's concern. Swoop downgrade but compensation remains the same? Ride that senior FO sched/skipper pay forever! How about you vote no to your own weak TA in the future vs down talk anyone else's agreements??
From where I'm standing you're the hypocrite. Calling out the pilots of a tiny little airline with 300 pilots, for accepting wages on par with your own 1800 members, and then turning around and accepting 15% gains going into the deepest pilot shortage the world has ever seen? You think WS and WR losing 70 pilots a month was bad, when the dust settles on this piece of garbage you're going to regret signing it. And F8 gets to play the last card in 31 months when we get to build on our first CBA with a decent union.
Within the context of an AC FO clearing >$5000 a month this may seem like a give. For me as a 20+ CA that dreads the $2000 paycheque every January, this is a massive improvement and voting it down isn't entirely practical. This is selling your house at a high water mark that could change your life. Voting it down is a dive into the unknown and potentially chasing diminishing returns. This is the contract I wish we had 10 years ago and builds a solid foundation for the future. This is likely my last or second last contract and I know that we are no longer bargaining against what happened four years ago and can build for the future. It may not include everything but we used the leverage we had to right the wrongs that have plagued our pilot group. I look forward to moving forward and getting this behind us.
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Last edited by WJ200 on Tue May 23, 2023 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
WJ200 wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 5:47 pm
Within the context of an AC FO clearing >$5000 a month this may seem like a give. For me as a 20+ CA that dreads the $2000 paycheque every January, this is a massive improvement and voting it down isn't entirely practical. This is selling your house at a high water mark that could change your life. Voting it down is a dive into the unknown and potentially chasing diminishing returns. This is the contract I wish we had 10 years ago and builds a solid foundation for the future. This is likely my last or second last contract and I know that we are no longer bargaining against what happened four years ago and can build for the future. It may not include everything but we used the leverage we had to rights the wrongs that have plagued our pilot group. I look forward to moving forward and getting this behind us.
Well said. On the surface, this is making the work environment desirable again.
W.K. really fckd us 4 years ago and set us back a decade or more with the wins he gave WJ. Yes it really sucks that we are just getting those things back but this is our actual first negotiated contract that can be built on going forward.
I am not willing to vote something down that my union has put forward as the best agreement they could come up with. They were the ones in the room. They know all the details. ALPA has nearly a century of experience in negotiations. If that huge toolbox I keep hearing so much about recommended sending a garbage CA out for a vote, I have some concerns about where my 2% is going.
co-joe wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 4:38 pm
From where I'm standing you're the hypocrite. Calling out the pilots of a tiny little airline with 300 pilots, for accepting wages on par with your own 1800 members
Sorry to burst your bubble but your new CA isn't even close to our old CA.
co-joe wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 4:38 pm
From where I'm standing you're the hypocrite. Calling out the pilots of a tiny little airline with 300 pilots, for accepting wages on par with your own 1800 members
Sorry to burst your bubble but your new CA isn't even close to our old CA.
Thats a pretty bold claim seeing as Flairs new CA annual guarantee for captains beats every single year of WJ under the old contract. Starting FO is also no comparison.
I'm sure you might argue that there are other benefits in the CA and you might be right... but claiming it "doesn't come close" is a bit of a stretch.
The problem with comparing contracts is the cherry picking of small portions of it. Bargaining includes the contract in its entirety and the company costs every union request. Westjet pilots captured all of the flying under one OC with their NEW scope clause. That’s worth a fortune for the pilots and will cost the company a lot of money. Wages are one thing but making 400k per year to fly a 737 at Westjet when the company uses Swoop and Sunwing at significantly lower wages is worth nothing.
No skin in the game besides being at TS and seing what we will be able to use as leverage numbers wise and working conditions in a few year. I’ll be able to better judge once the TA is out but I think they did a great job. You have to aim high to capture your real ask, some people get hung up on the hype job as if it was really possible to close the gap with the US including the exchange.
One thing people seem to miss is it’s way harder to set a higher bar than it is to close the gap which is why this is so important to have WJ pay more than AC for the first time ever. Higher WJ rates will make it a lot easier for AC to negotiate even higher rates and rinse and repeat, finally pattern bargaining in action hopefully.
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 4:22 am
One thing people seem to miss is it’s way harder to set a higher bar than it is to close the gap which is why this is so important to have WJ pay more than AC for the first time ever. Higher WJ rates will make it a lot easier for AC to negotiate even higher rates and rinse and repeat, finally pattern bargaining in action hopefully.
Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 4:22 am
One thing people seem to miss is it’s way harder to set a higher bar than it is to close the gap which is why this is so important to have WJ pay more than AC for the first time ever. Higher WJ rates will make it a lot easier for AC to negotiate even higher rates and rinse and repeat, finally pattern bargaining in action hopefully.
Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.
I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 4:22 am
One thing people seem to miss is it’s way harder to set a higher bar than it is to close the gap which is why this is so important to have WJ pay more than AC for the first time ever. Higher WJ rates will make it a lot easier for AC to negotiate even higher rates and rinse and repeat, finally pattern bargaining in action hopefully.
Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.
I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?
What I meant to say is that if WJ were to get at least within 30-40% lower than US pilot pay rates, than AC would have an easier time negotiating higher pay rates later this year. With WJ only getting a 15% bump (effectively still only being paid roughly half of US pilots) I would think it would be unlikely to see AC get a 50-100% bump in pay for the next contract. If WJ were to get a 50% bump, than sure AC pilots would have more leverage to negotiate.
fish4life wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 4:22 am
One thing people seem to miss is it’s way harder to set a higher bar than it is to close the gap which is why this is so important to have WJ pay more than AC for the first time ever. Higher WJ rates will make it a lot easier for AC to negotiate even higher rates and rinse and repeat, finally pattern bargaining in action hopefully.
Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.
I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?
From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.
Exactly I was trying to make the same point. we need to make this industry a race to the top like the Americans. AC will have to work much harder now to get up to those US pay rates.
I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?
From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.
I hope they are, but 15% generally won't cut it from the wage tables I've seen.
145 ish YR 1 CA at WJ
175 ish YR 1 CA at AC.
First year FO a different story.
I do hope the gains are better than they sound though!
I could be mistaken, but I dont think this 15% puts WJ pay rates higher than AC. Or is this what you meant?
From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.
I hope they are, but 15% generally won't cut it from the wage tables I've seen.
145 ish YR 1 CA at WJ
175 ish YR 1 CA at AC.
First year FO a different story.
I do hope the gains are better than they sound though!
No one makes YR 1 CA at WJ though, with YOS, most WJ pilots start at about YR 10 CA
From the numbers I’ve seen WJ will definitely be higher than current AC NB. The problem is these are all rumour based from people trying to do the math of raises based on old rates so I guess we will see in a few weeks once the actual pay rates are published.
I hope they are, but 15% generally won't cut it from the wage tables I've seen.
145 ish YR 1 CA at WJ
175 ish YR 1 CA at AC.
First year FO a different story.
I do hope the gains are better than they sound though!
No one makes YR 1 CA at WJ though, with YOS, most WJ pilots start at about YR 10 CA
Exactly. Currently a 9 year upgrade for YYZ and 14 years for YYC/YVR.
AC is at 2 years i believe.
